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Post by eppie on Nov 23, 2007 18:22:16 GMT 1
How many eastern farms are willing to pay for an exotic Fendt, when they can also buy an economic Versatile or Steiger ? Fendt will only build a handfull of them each year, where Steiger and Versatile have economy of scale.
In my opinion, Fendt just puts up a weather balloon to test the public reaction, and off course its a good PR stunt too...
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Post by Bernhard on Nov 23, 2007 19:38:10 GMT 1
It´s Your opinion, as I know that you are no friend of Fendt. I´m also no Fendt freak, but they are part of AGCO now. So to market them would be the smallest Problem. Do you really think, that russian Oligarchs (the large former governement owned operations are not really farms, and their owners often no farmers) know Steiger or Versatile? Steiger maybe cause of CNH. Noone said, that the Trisix will be built, but if it will not show up in the old EU countries. How do You know, that the Fendt is not economic? Yes, like said above, an easteuropean Farmer will not buy a Trisix. Otherwise: The Zetor is also an exotic tractor in some corners of the world.  |
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Post by Jon B on Nov 23, 2007 20:27:51 GMT 1
I wonder how well Buhlers will sell now that Rostselmash owns them
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Post by eppie on Nov 24, 2007 15:42:54 GMT 1
Jon B, Renaults started to sell well as soon as Claas marketed them... Buhler would sell well now when Rostselmash dealers sell them.
Bernhard, my opinion has nothing to do wether Fendt has market channels in the east or not: Read back and see that i didnt even mention marketing... again...
Why this Trisix is not economic: The whole concept has a higher build price than an average articulated tractor. That means that the bottom manufacturing price will remain higher no matter how many they sell: The price means that they will sell less. So the development costs have to be spread over less models, which further increases the sales price per unit.
The Czech Dvorak, which this Trisix is a copy of, is built on standard Tatra truck components and axles. The development costs have been earned back through thousands of units in the past 75 years.
Oh and about Zetor being exotic or not: Zetor built 1.2 million units and in india they license built another million... How many Trisix will Fendt sell in 60 years ??
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Post by adamL on Nov 24, 2007 18:00:29 GMT 1
I still like the idea of resurrecting the 2+2 idea, but does anyone hold the rights to it?
Our cultivation man says his 300hp rowcrop tractor can't always get its power to the ground dispite having the biggest tyres that could be stuffed under the fenders. Equal sized wheels in that sized tractor and a hinge in the middle might be the right way forward.
Tracks won't and don't suit everyone. We had a tracked machine on demo in the summer. Said cultivation man said that there were as many pro's as con's with tracks and that does not include transport considerations.
How much of the 3 axle Fendt would have to be new anyway? There might have to be some fancy transfer cases to direct torque to the appropiate axle, but the engines will be the same as will transmissions, cabs, hydraulics and there is no reason why a steered version on a fixed axle would be out of the question, JCB do it so I feel sure Agco could. I guess the tin would would be bespoke to that series...
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Post by Bernhard on Nov 24, 2007 19:26:45 GMT 1
The concept of the Trisix is also made for roaduse, up to 60 km/h, space not wider then 2,50m.
Ok...but where ist the Dvorak? The Tatra Truck concept is a good one, but also the Tatras only show up in the east
Sure, Fendt will not built 1 millioin Trisix in 60 years. Who has thought about the enginetechnology we have today in 1947?
Or about transmissions with more then 10 gears forward?
It can be, that Zetor has builded 1,2million tractors and I know the turkish Hattat (Valtra license now) even that licensed Zetors from India, but where are all the Zetors?
They are dissapeared in the black hole of all the czech, polish or russian backyards of their former government owned operations.
And: How many of the Zetors had been sold outside the iron Curtain?
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Post by eppie on Nov 24, 2007 21:29:00 GMT 1
We're talking economy of scales here: This principle has NOTHING to do with 1947 vs. 2007 engine technology, having 10 gears or not, where they show up, in which or whose backyard they disappear, used by governmental institutions or not:
All that matters in the principle of economy of scales, is the number of sold units, over which the development costs can be spread. That counts in any factory, on any side of the former curtain.
Bernhard, it is sad that you get stuck at the level of just seeing Zetor boy bashing Fendt and start ranting before you understand the actual words been written....
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Post by Bernhard on Nov 24, 2007 23:12:10 GMT 1
Ok...have You counted the sold Zetors? Or do you only believe a website?
I also don´t believe engineers, you are one, right?
We have owned a lot of tractors of several brands, Deutz, IH, Hanomag (off course) Ford, Schlüter, yes and 2 Fendt. I would buy a Zetor or a Belarus, too (if the price is right), infact no JD ( we´ve had a JD-Lanz 310 (only a year, if I remember it right).
Are You really sure, that it was economical to built Zetors in the socialist times? I think, you have to refresh your knowledge about socialist economy. Infact it was not. The tractors, may it be Zetor, Ursus, Belarus or whatever only have been sold in the west, to get Valuta, that was the only reason.
Maybe the Trisix is the future of tractors. Who knows? Me not.
BTW: Have You ever heard about a thing named mixed calcualtion? It means, that you make the bestsellers a bit expensiver, so that you can afford to sell the bad sellers for a lower price.
The best will be to ask orange for that, he has an office in former
USSR and knows the circumstances better then me.
Today in PL I don´t see a lot of zetors around. Onliest Farmer I know, and I know a lot, which has bought a new Forterra, is the neigbour of my mother in law. And if You watch all the farms in Poland, which are using Ursus, I would state that Ursus sold more tractors then Zetor.
We are going offtopic, so better to stop discussion here, or start a new thread.
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Post by eppie on Nov 25, 2007 11:40:01 GMT 1
You bring up some reasonable points, but still: whether it was economic or not, to build Zetors, has nothing to do with the point if it is economic to build a couple of Trisix.
Nor the point that Eastern tractor manufacturers might have relied on government support or not. It's all side effects, it has nothing to do with the build and development cost of a Trisix.
About the principle of mixed calculation, VW does it with the Phaeton: the project itself barely breaks even: anyhow, building the Phaeton is a show off to improve their brand image.
Still, the direct financial effect of the Phaeton on its own, makes it unprofitable. They build them for the added benefit of marketing, which is an indirect marketing effect.
Governments fiddle a lot with the price of export goods, to get hold of their financials: It doesnt happen just in the former communist states, also in Holland: The Dutch government relieved truck maker DAF of its debts in the mid '90s. At that time they didnt make a profit, but the effects of the job loss in case of a bankruptcy would be far greater on the national economy, than supporting DAF with some subsidies.
Most countries have some sort of import duties to protect the national producers against foreign competition. Last year the steel business of the USA was in the news because of this.
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Post by IH on Nov 25, 2007 14:29:03 GMT 1
Renze, if the Dutch government did it for DAF (which is a quality product), why in hell didn't they do it for Fokker Vliegtuigenfabriek?.
Secondly, Fendt hardly needs to improve it's image! I think the whole basic theory behind the Trisix was - "let's do it, just to show we can, and hey we night get somewhere with it!"
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Post by eppie on Nov 25, 2007 18:16:05 GMT 1
IH, Fokker was too expensive. they built a premium product with old production methods. They needed a lot more to be done and invested, to be able to produce planes for a price that the market was willing to pay. Also, Fokker was divided into pieces, about 1/3 of the company (the airplane factory) stopped, the service department continued, and another division was put under the wings of Stork, which continues to produce parts for others. It is not so, that when Fokker stopped building aircraft, all jobs were lost: Most divisions were sold to other national companies, the space division was continued as an individual company. Most jobs continued. At this moment, a company called www.rekkof.nl/ (Fokker spelled in reverse) tries to build the Fokker 100 supported by suppliers and airline companies. The fokker planes had an outstanding fuel economy, which is a lot more important in todays market than 10 years ago. |
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Post by guest on Nov 27, 2007 9:34:01 GMT 1
believe me this is not R&D of marktoberdorf that want to do such thinks, it are the american managment Yubs that want to be in the picture. big, bigger, biggest.
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Post by DSFDSF on Jan 5, 2009 7:41:43 GMT 1
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urge using oil to stop
Guest
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Post by urge using oil to stop on Jan 5, 2009 15:22:15 GMT 1
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Post by eppie on Jan 6, 2009 15:34:02 GMT 1
believe me this is not R&D of marktoberdorf that want to do such thinks, it are the american managment Yubs that want to be in the picture. big, bigger, biggest. This is an allmost 3 year old thread, (popped to the surface by these spammers) Lets look at this now: Agco cant spend a penny because they are really going to need them, to keep their American branches alive. The sideline discussion, about DAF and Fokker: The Rekkof aircraft company has cut the production cost of the Fokker 70 and 100 by roughly 25% by improved production methods. Their fuel consumption is still unrivalled, but due to the financial crisis, fuel prices have dropped a 30% so it isnt such a strong marketing point as it used to be... DAF invested in a large factory in Eindhoven for the 9.2 and 12 liter engines under Paccar badge in North America: It wont get its full production capacity the first couple of years, because of the crisis. They sent people home during the christmas holidays, while last year they also needed night shifts to fill the demand. It has been quiet about the trisix lately... Anyone seen one in the wild ? |
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