Flail or roller conditioning on disc mowers?

[Grant]

I will soon be ordering a JD 830 center pivot disc mower. It will significantly speed up the process in my custom haying operation.

I do about 90 % grass and 10% alfalfa/grass. Does anyone out there have experience using a flail conditioning system on a disc mower? It seems to be the way everyone around here is going these days. it's supposed to speed up dry-down-especially on grass.

I've always used a JD 820 with roller conditioning. It's always worked fine--I set the conditioner pressure once in the spring and never changed it through the season.

I can order the 830 with either conditioning system. Any input would be most helpful.

Thanks!

[IH]

Flial conditioners can cause excessive damage to leafy crops, like Alfalfa or Clover. As for speeding up the drying process, it might be true but there isn't a significant difference. Rollers do take a little more hp, but they are more gentle.

Why JD? There are significantly better european mowers out there, even centre pivot ones. A few guys around here have bought new JD disc mowers and have had alot of problems with the tables in them.

[eppie]

Over here in Europe, we dont grow Alfalfa (well allmost none, just some commercial drying operations grow it to bag it for horse shops) though about 2 years ago i have seriously looked into it if we could grow it here.

I think 99.9% of the conditioners in Europe are flail ones. Also of the grass/alfalfa ratio, 99.9% of the silage is grass.


Looking at the conditioners themself, a flail conditioner is designed to slam the wax coat off the grass leafs, to speed up the drying process. A roller conditoner is designed to crush or squeeze, the hard stems of alfalfa, and to leave the brittle leafs of the alfalfa alone.

Looking at your situation, when mowing alfalfa with a flail conditioner would result in significant loss of nutrient value because the brittle leafs are shred off the plants and wasted.
When mowing grass with a roller conditioner, the effect on the grass is little. in other words, a roller conditioner just wastes fuel when used in young, fine ryegrass.
(it might be different with the grasses they use on North American pastures, they are rougher and have more stem, i think, where roller conditoners might perform better)

So to say it shortly, if you buy the flail conditoner, turn it off when mowing alfalfa.
If you buy a roller conditioner and use it in fine types of (stemless) ryegrass, you waste fuel with little effect.
About roller conditioners in hard stemmed grass like what is common in North America, i cannot tell you.



If it was for the grass, buy a flail conditoner: it gives way better results for the fuel it needs.
If it was for the alfalfa, you'll need to turn the flail conditoner off, that 10% of the time.

Since you are custom operator, check what your clients will accept. A flail conditioner might be better in grass, but is it worth to please the grass growers, while disappointing the alfalfa growers when you cant mow with conditioner on their fields ?
Sometimes you shouldt buy the machine that is technically best, but the type that a conservative client (maybe with poor knowledge?) will accept.

[Bernhard]

Better to buy a Kuhn mower. It´s cheaper then the JD, but the same machine in another colour.

Renze´s posting is very usefull...as always.

[pudding as guest]

anyway of finding out what ya neighbours got?.......what the deere dealer has sold most of?

helps for parts if nothing else

both flails and rollers are used round here, but its a non exact science here, often the silage chopper is in the same paddock as the mowers, no real advantage to conditioning there!!

rollers work well, don't like stones, flails are a bit harder on the crop, but you mow the crop when its green right

good luck

[IH]

Personally....Kuhn, Elho, Krone, Poettinger, or Claas. Not sure what the new Kverneland mowers would be like, the one we have cuts like razor, but the build quality is basically terrible.

Krone Easycut, Poettinger NovaCat, and the Elho HydroBalance mowers impress me the most out of any of them. Kuhn is quality product, but they their table is starting to look dated and they have lost alot of market share here to Krone and Poettinger.

[Grant]

Thanks very much for your responses to my questions re. flail vs roller conditioners on mocos.

You guys have certainly given me lots to think about! I have been doing lots of research/talking to dealers and farmers in the last couple of days.

In order to buy locally, (within 100 km), my choices for a new center pivot mower are the JD 830, the Kuhn FC 303 and the Vicon KMT or KMR 3001.

The Kuhn is not the same as the JD. Apparently they split in the early 90's--according to both the JD and the Kuhn dealer.

The Vicon is "part of the Kverneland group." Each rotor has 3 knives instead of 2. I don't have a price for this one yet--but I have a good relationship with the dealer - and they are approx. 20 minutes from home. "IH"--would this be the same mower that you referred to in your post as a terribly built Kverneland?? The dealer doesn't have one in stock--so I have only looked at pictures!

As far as the conditioning goes, I am almost certain I will go with the flail (impeller) system. I spoke to a couple of dairy farmers in my area who make a lot of small square bales, and they seem to make very good quality alfalfa hay with the flail conditioner. Besides, the roller system is about $1200 (Canadian) more!!

[eppie]

Grant said:

they seem to make very good quality alfalfa hay with the flail conditioner. Besides, the roller system is about $1200 (Canadian) more!!

Then it seems like an easy choice on the conditioner system...



I think Deere only shared the cutting beam with Kuhn, not the rest of the machine... although its the most important component.

I dont know if you can get them, but Fella has great value for money. They have improved their build quality greatly in the last 15 years, and in user questionnaires, they turn out in the top 3 of best quality mowers. They still arent priced high though.

[adamL]

Many moons ago (1995) is used an old NH Haybine with the rubber conditioning roller. It was hopeless in anything thicker than lawn chippings but it made a really nice swath. One day we were baling some alfalfa and I looked behind the baler and the stubble was thick with fragments of the alfalfa leaves. They are very brittle.

[hedydd]

I have a KMT3000 mower with flail conditioner. It has covered many thousands of acres of heavy silage crops in the wet West of the UK. It has had very few problems. It broke the drive shaft back from the two front swivel gearboxes under the drawbar a couple of years ago. Now it needs the oil seals between the swivel gearboxes replaced and the joint tightened.

The knives last a very long time if not cutting stones.
The cutterbar is very different from the Kv one . The Kv cutterbar is thicker and more stiff and quieter but maybe the Vicon one gives a better quality of cut. Not sure on that one. Certainly Vicon will retain the three knife discs and this is very good and it is very long lasting. The latest models available here are able to spread and swath. Mine is an older and more complex design of frame and I can see that newer ones are much improved in almost every area.

[IH]

I think the Kv table/cutterbar is actually built by Comer. The quality of cut is decent, but the built quality of the rest of the machine isn't. The sheilds are light, almost like heavy tin, and the conditionining system (flail and a checker plate) in ours is nearly a joke.

Vicon died out around here along time ago, mostly due to their Olympus and older KMT/KMR models with the poor cutterbar protection or poor design in them. The new mowers look too light.

Given the choice...Poettinger, Kuhn, Krone, Elho, or Claas. All are good machines. Krone and Elho both have good suspensions and table designs, Kuhn has a a very good overall product and large model range to choose from and high resale value. The same for Claas.

[hedydd]

ih said:

I think the Kv table/cutterbar is actually built by Comer. The quality of cut is decent, but the built quality of the rest of the machine isn't. The sheilds are light, almost like heavy tin, and the conditionining system (flail and a checker plate) in ours is nearly a joke.

Vicon died out around here along time ago, mostly due to their Olympus and older KMT/KMR models with the poor cutterbar protection or poor design in them. The new mowers look too light.

Given the choice...Poettinger, Kuhn, Krone, Elho, or Claas. All are good machines. Krone and Elho both have good suspensions and table designs, Kuhn has a a very good overall product and large model range to choose from and high resale value. The same for Claas.

The older, and I mean ancient, Vicon Doublet and Olympus mowers were from another age. They generally needed a major cutterbar overhaul every thousand acres or so which entailed splitting the bed. Those days are gone, thank goodness. The flail conditioner was also mounted too far foward over the cutterbar which meant that in heavy laid crops, if it was laid back towards the cutterbar, the conditioner grabbed the crop before it was cut. There were other problems such as the suspension balance. In summary the machine was rubbish. They are not representative of machines built in the last 15 years which are among the best available.

Kuhn beds have been used by JD until last year and continue to be used by JF. Elho died in the UK about a decade ago. Krone don't seem as popular as they used to be but Claas pushes its kit aggressively and are well priced due to their Eastern European build.

All mounted mowers that are pulled by their inner end tend to eventually crack between the inner disc and the frame. If you need a durable heavy duty wide mounted moco then best to go for one with a top frame over the cutterbar with support to the far side and an arm which attaches the unit to the linkage frame and ends at the centre top of the cutterbar support frame with a pivot. Hope the meaning of that is clear.

[IH]

Kuhn hasn't supplied beds to John Deere in North America for at leats 10 years, maybe longer now. Elho died-out here due to a piss-poor importer, who now handles Fella (!!) Claas are seen as being overpriced here. Krone and Poettinger are enjoying a huge surge in sales during the last year.

[adamL]

How much difference between brands/,makes is there in the quality of cut, IE doe some makes/brands get under laid crops better than others?

And how much difference between makes/brand is their in quality of the swath?

There is supposed to be a new(er) mower in this parish too.

[Reivax not logged]

In this part of south Europe we really grow alfalfa, I'm sure you will have some difficults to find another crop, maybe some raygrass before corn silage or a little festuca...

Here about 99% of conditioners are rollers. And used in festuca the roller have a good effect, and sure is softer to the plant than the flail ones...

About brands maybe John Deere is the most popular disc mower, some JF too...