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Post by Jas on Jul 28, 2003 0:40:26 GMT 1
I have had a bit of experience with the problems that SAME tractor have. With regard to the front axle was it the splines going on the input to the front axle? if it was this is mainly due to operator error and not greasing the front axle pivot bushes properly, the proper way to grease is to take the load off the axle then grease so the grease can make it way around the pivot for the axle. This still happens on all makes but since SAME has a central drive line and no UJ's to allow verticle movement as soon as wear starts on the pivot bushes then the splines start to cut out. Yes we do have a very strong dealer support system, and Yes i partially agree with your last statement about all that matters is how fast the mechanics can get it going again, this is ok if tractor is more than 3000 hrs old and only small problems but as soon as you get them breaking down after 50 hrs from new with problmes then there is a major problem somewhere. I know that all tractor brands have problems, but in a small country like mine you shouldn't get alot of them breaking down because we only take a couple of days production for a whole year. But going against what i have said there is alot of owners who have had a great run from there tractor and they wouldn't buy any other brand, there are lots with '000 of hrs on and still going as well as the first day they tried them. I never heard about the Titan breaking in half, i don't think that there were many sold down here. The most common models down here are the Explorers and the Silvers. I have heard that people have expressed some interest in the Kypton Crawlers. Will be interesting to see how they go.
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Post by eppie on Jul 28, 2003 6:55:10 GMT 1
Hmmm.... If just that's the problem, i'd use homokinetic joints in oil bath, if i was SAME... just like in Euro fwd cars....
i agree, about Sammies you hear very different stories every day... you to love them or hate them.. ;D
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Robert in West Michigan USA
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Post by Robert in West Michigan USA on Jul 29, 2003 1:43:25 GMT 1
I have two Agco Allis tractors, (SAME) and i wanted to thank Jas for the good tip on how to "properly" grease the pivot bushings. It inspired me to use the loader today, to lift the front end and grease my pivot bushings on my tractor. Both of my tractors came with a four year 4,000 hour warranty, but i never needed it, and i'm happy with both of my tractors. Thanks again, Robert
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Post by Jas on Jul 29, 2003 5:28:37 GMT 1
Robert thanks, you mentioned a 4 year warranty was that the standard warranty or was it something extra you paid for. The model you have looks like the explorer series. In New Zealand we have nothing like a 4 year warranty or even 4000 hrs. Are those bales 6x4. You don't see that size of bales anymore most dairy farmers like 4x4 because of the ease of handling and feeding out and also most round bales are baleage. A 4x4 bale can easly weigh 700 kg. Thanks once again it is nice to know that my tips are appreciated.
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Post by guest on Jul 29, 2003 13:50:29 GMT 1
If you know something about the history of Same you see somethink back in there tractor series. The legendary leone's panther's drago's and buffalo's where the last won's out of the hand of the master engineer and owner F.Cassani he sure know how to make a engine and tractor. when he died his daughter had to run the company. but in de 70's the company doubled almost every year there turnover so they had hands full whit manegement off the incredabel expansion. R&D at that time where going foreward with as base the panther's drago's and buffalo's, Even the laser serie was not more than an updatet buffalo. At the end of the 70's they started there first project without the master himself, it was the explorer serie wich had a brand new tranny, backand and engine. Probleby most of the R&D college's that had worked with F.Cassani where retired and the first explorers had many failures. The concept was way to light for some jobs. With the coming of the silver serie you could see they had learned from the explorer serie and it was stronger build.
At this time they have Y think better control over these thinks, an there reliability is probleby better than the competition. But the firts explorers, antares, titan serie have don now good on the brand name, It is a hell of a job in some country's to get rid of that name. you see like in the story above that they have to give high waranty periods to prove there worth.
Maybe the son's of mothers carroza/cassani who now are entering the company, have something of the spirit and enterprise of there grandfather so R&D will rise to the top like in the day's of cassani. At that time production and testting of prototype's where going 7 day's a week. The man is a legend. At the time of cassani, R&D was the spirit of the company. and so it must be in the future. It is the only way to serfive the blows of the time.
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Post by ZJ on Jul 29, 2003 16:01:46 GMT 1
Hey Jas, Robert's tractor on picture is actually Same Argon 60 . My opinion is that reliability of (any) machine depends of operator and maintenance. During 35 years, we have always lightweight built (light duty) tractors, and never broke tethwheel or gearbox casing. Yes, truth is that we are careful to them, never pushed our tractors very hard, or expect too much of them. When you buy a tractor, you probably know what kind of tasks you expect to do. And according to this, you will buy apropriate model, if you can pay for it ;D I know that Zetor 5211 can pull heavier trailor than lighter Explorer, but on tiller or power harrows is another story... Thanks for greasing tip. I have two tractors with coaxial pivoted front axle, and one of them is Same.
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Robert in West Michigan USA
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Post by Robert in West Michigan USA on Jul 29, 2003 19:49:25 GMT 1
My two Agco Allis tractors, as i said above were built by SAME. Agco Allis (now Agco) offered the 4yr/4000 hr. warr. at no extra cost!! The bales are 4x5's. I had my neighbor bale them for me, as i only have a small square baler. He likes the 4x5 size because they are a good size to haul on a trailor, and he sells a lot of hay. He just bought this baler new, as a few weeks ago his tractor (CIH 1394) caught on fire and burned both the tractor and baler. The new baler is a CIH RBX 451. (made by NH) I bought my second Agco to use on my rotavator. I do a lot of custom rotavateing, and i've got about 400 rotavateing hours on it now, and it's also been a trouble free tractor. These tractor aren't perfect, but they do the job well, and when i bought them they were a lot lower priced than CIH, or Deere. I liked the idea that they are low tech tractors that will be easy to repair myself as needed, when they get older. I just don't need all the bells and whistles that cause all the problems when the tractors get older!! Robert
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Post by eppie on Jul 31, 2003 20:51:41 GMT 1
Robert, How big of a rotavator do you use ? i guess rotovators are more used in gardens or new lawns than on ag. fields in your area ??
ZJ, what's your other tractor with "coaxial pivoted front axle" ??
By the way, breaking a casting is an extraordinary achievement in my opinion... We broke a gear once in our Ursus C-385 A but that was after 14.000 hrs.
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Robert in West Michigan USA
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Post by Robert in West Michigan USA on Aug 1, 2003 0:50:57 GMT 1
Renz, I have (3) Howard Rotavators. 43", 72" and 80". I use the 72" the most, and i've had it the longest. In fact, it's now on it's third tractor. I started with a 30-06 Deutz, and it was fine for gardens, but not enough power for field work. I then bought a Deutz 40-06, and it was a lot better, but i didn't like the tractor. Finally i bought the 4650 AGCO, and it is a very good match, but it is also the mininum hp for a 72" wide machine. I've rotavated just about everything, includeing gardens, fire breaks, new lawns, and corn fields. I've taken out old gravel driveways, reclaimed old ground that was previously planted in Chirstmas trees. And for those farmers who are growing organically, "nothing" incorporates mulch like a rotavator! I live in an area where there's a lot of apples grown. Old fruit tree ground is a good canidate for rotavateing, as is hard clay knowles that are very difficult to plough. I guess i've rotavated just about anything you can think of over the last 15+ years. Two farmers not far from here, rotavate all their corn ground, and just bought two new 120" Howards last year. The real secret to rotavateing is, to learn how to set the rotavator, to get the amount of tillage you desire!!! With a 4 speed gear box, and many other ajustments it truely is a multi purpose tool. The picture is of a rye field that didn't have the straw baled. I just turned the rotor speed up, and rotavated the straw right back into the ground, useing the 72" rotavator going three miles per hour with my AGCO 4650 shown is the last picture. I went over the field one time with the rotavator, and then planted rye a couple days later. For my own ground, i never plough or disc anymore. I only rotavate useing my AGCO 5660 and 80" Howard. I hope i didn't sound too much like a Howard salesman!! :>) Robert
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Post by eppie on Aug 1, 2003 1:59:11 GMT 1
4650 and 5660, are those 50 and 60 hp ?? 72" is about 180 cm.. We did some 180 cm Kronevator work with our 45 hp Zetor 4712 some years ago.. Last spring, we had rough land, we had a bad quality of silage and thrown some blocks of it on the land each week, so the 15 horses coult eat what they liked from it. Cultivating was no option, you could hardly work the ground, just drag heaps of rotten silage around on the tines. we hired a 2.30 meter Kuhn rotavator, and at full depth, more than 25 cm (10"), it really took some effort from our 70 hp 6718 to slice through the hard soil with about 3 cm of muddy, half rotten silage on top... I think you know what wet ground does with power harrowing... ..And to the harrow, everything was wet in the rain, except for the gearboxes on the harrow... ;D What is your average working depth, like on that photo you posted ?? That land doesn't look very loose, according to the hardly noticeable tractor tracks. Do many of the root-weeds return when harrowing ??
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Post by ZJ on Aug 1, 2003 20:31:19 GMT 1
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Post by F6L913 on Aug 1, 2003 20:48:00 GMT 1
Hey Renze, wanna sell your Zetor? I was working with my cousin's MX150 with a Khun 3m Rotavator, model 142 i think. We put rotor speed to 286 rpm and work in a dry cereal field and set the depth to 20 cm. In the slowest speed of the tractor the cummins couldn't get more than 1900 rpm and overheat really fast. We blow radiator and air filter and we work 15 hours with the temp gauge very close to the red zone. I can't understand why your Zetor could handle a 2,30 in wet conditions...please, share you secret
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Robert in West Michigan USA
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Post by Robert in West Michigan USA on Aug 2, 2003 2:07:53 GMT 1
My 4650 is a 45 pto hp tractor, and i had the 5660 dynoed at my CIH dealer, so i know the pto hp for sure. It made 60 hp at pto speed. 99% of the time i leave my rotavator at 8" deep. As was already mentioned, if the ground is wet, it really takes some hp to rotavate deep!!! Slowing the rotor speed, and going slower uses less hp, but i try to stay out of fields that are wet!! In my opinion, rotavateing soil that's wet destroys the structure of the soil, and your better off to wait untill it drys out a bit. The reason you can't see wheel tracks in the last picture, is because the straw i rotavated back in, was about 5 feet tall! All that mulch going back into the soil held my tractor up!! Remember, a rotavator tractor doesn't need to be a heavy tractor. I have NO ballast of any kind on it, and it has radial tires, so it "floats" on top of the soil fairly well. That field was tilled 8 inches deep! Rotavateing kills root weeds fairly good, but it also incorporates any new seeds that lay on top of the ground. All the seeds near the surface WILL germinate, and that's why i plant soon after rotavateing. It gives "my" seed, a good start before the weeds get going. Many times when i'm done rotavateing a field, i can look at the field, and see a huge amount of the taller weeds upside down, tilled in with the roots sticking straight up!!! Of course, all those weeds will die with the roots in the air. This picture is of my AGCO 5660, with a Howard HR30 80 inch. Robert
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Post by eppie on Aug 2, 2003 5:07:54 GMT 1
ZJ, the Fiat i see... F6L913: That's always been my pleasure with old Zetors.. We had a 4712 (2.7 liter three pot, officially 45 hp) that put out 53 PTO hp, and pulled machines that our neighbor's Renault 651 had to leave... It pulled a 6 m3 manure tanker with the 3 meter cultivator hooked up behind the tank, in 2nd gear (6.5 km/h) you can imagine, it was like tractor pulling, there were no front weight enough to keep the nose down, even when we hanged our neighbor's front weights too... ;D ;D Yes my 6718 couldn't get faster than 1800-2100 rpm either, in 1st gear low (1.5 km/h) but after a half an hour, the temperature went down (the engine burned the tar sludge out of the heads) and i increased the working depth to max, what was aobut 25 cm. It didn't exceed 105 'C anymore. To put it to work, i couldn't stop it, and drop teh PTO clutch lever again to get going again, without having to lif the harrow or the PTO clutch just slipped, the start torque is too high. Anyway when it's running and you drop the hitch, there's no problem. (or when you slash a heavy pipe stuck in, like i did... that spot where i hit the pipe used to be my brother's trash land..) These Zetors have simple and very efficient trannies and just GREAT engines, if they are raised well, they go till the end... Our current 5245 is an underachiever, doesn't do half what the 4712 did (with about the same engine) Anyway i will see what happens when i change the fuel nozzles... smokes blue when started cold... Yes it had a new water pump when we got it, probably overheated once.... Robert: Yes i know wet soil should be left alone..... But here, we had no choice... We have about 20 breeding and jumping horses, the young ones (about 12) we put in our pasture with the worst sods every winter. The next spring we plow and re-seed there. All those hoofs ran the top layer very compacted, it was always wet there. Especially with the rotten silage on top, the water didn't sink into the subsoil. Opening the top soil was the only way to let the water sink into the subsoil.
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