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Post by me@spamblock.com on Apr 4, 2002 1:28:13 GMT 1
From the Claas website
"Negotiations between Claas and AGCO concluded:
Claas terminates sale of Challenger-tractors in Europe
Claas has ceased the negotiations with AGCO about the distribution of Challenger belt drive tractors in Europe.
The strong dollar and high manufacturing costs in the De Kalb USA plant, which AGCO has recently taken over from Caterpillar, resulted in an increase in the transfer prices offered to Claas for European specification Challengers.
This in turn would have given a customer price which Claas believe will be uncompetitive in the market and uneconomical for potential Challenger users.
In the past, Caterpillar and Claas have subsidized the machine price in order to establish Challenger in the European Market and in the belief that the $Euro rate would return to that in force when the original contract was negotiated.
As far as the existing population of more than 1000 European Challengers are concerned, Claas continues to have a direct contract with Caterpillar for the ongoing supply of spare parts and technical support. Claas Challengers will, therefore, continue to enjoy after sales support at current levels."
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Post by Woodbeef on Apr 4, 2002 12:20:11 GMT 1
I always wondered if Claas would be lucky enough to keep the tracked line. It did not seem from the get go that Agco was all that enthused about letting anyone else sell the MTs in Europe except Massey and Fendt dealers.
It's a sad day at Claas that's for sure. They built a nice little niche market for the Challenger over the years. Now it will disappear after all that work.
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Post by leemsutton on Apr 4, 2002 17:55:28 GMT 1
I think this is a big blow for Claas as they have got a good reputation in europe especially england for top quality products and support.
loosing the challenger must be a big percentage of their annual turnover.
however, agco have now got a problem as they have got to convert existing challenger users to the new product and then to a new colour.
i for one would not have one in massey colours, although i would consider fendt colours. better still they should be sold in cat colours but i doubt agco will do that.
my guess is instead they will persist with massey red and grey or the horrible orange and get no where in europe. i know it will be a different story in the usa and canada but i am only talking from this side of the water.
now is the time for JD to push their new tracked machines - perhaps lower the price to get their feet in. also case have got to get the smaller quadtracks out this year as its the perfect opportunity for them to establish as Mx270 - 300 on tracks
Lee
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Post by Laapa on Apr 4, 2002 21:17:04 GMT 1
Wonder if the Challengers really ever were such a big percentage of Claas's business. They do sell a lot of combines you know...
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Post by Si on Apr 4, 2002 21:34:21 GMT 1
From a good source, Class UKs turnover was 25% based on cat products, thats alot to make up selling combines in a rapidly decreaseing market!
Simon
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Post by agcoman on Apr 5, 2002 1:41:01 GMT 1
[ THAT ORANGE IS THE BACKBONE OF AGCO. I for one am ALLIS CHALMERS and that is about it other than cat and white .DEERE is overrated and overpriced with their head in the air . CASE IH is a lot better than deere with a lot of good productlines. MASSY is the most overrated tractor and NEW HOLLAND has their stuff together and that is about my oppion of the ag market. I could care less about Claas over here in the usa but your europeans like them and that is understandable. I am in no way on here to cause a conflict with anyone but get so tired of hearing bad oppions about AGCO. The orange comment did it for me. MY oppion is agco needs to do better on their product lines and i am talking about their tractors more than anything. I think it is great they own CHALLENGER now,but i would like to see a tractor like the 8000 series allis chalmers with todays styling and a design of their own instead of agco always talking so much about massy. I fill like everyone has forgot about my favorite orange ac tractors.IT is always massy this ,massy that. I think massy is ok and that is about it . ACGO could sell more products if they would get their head out of their but and express more interest in a AGCO product not a massy product. AFTER all the company name is agco not massy.GETTING BACK TO THE claas topic. CLAAS does make a good hay tool and harvestor but they maybe can get a agco wheel tractor from agco and have it or the fengt tractor which is close to their color in the first place. I am sorry to seem like a prick on this , i just would like to see more interest in agco products not massy products.CLAAS could still have a tractor on tracks if they could get the price to where you could buy them over in europe where the farmers could buy them at a price that they could afford. AS FAR as the color of the challenger they should be yellow for usa and europe and orange for the agco market here in the usa. ALL COMPANIES HAVE GOOD PRODUCTS but the challenger is one of the best in the bussiness and i hope they show deere and company that they need to to get their head out of the air because i think agco and cat together will make a stronger market for themselfs and give more competion to deere. THE CASE IH STEIGER on tracks is alwsome and i think they have a good product as well . AGCO did their homework when they bought the challenger line and i hope they paint them orange and have a AGCO CHALLENGER DECAL on them. CHAD E SHAFER mickeymouse@bright.net ALLIS CHALMERS COLLECTOR
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pittsburgcowgirl@prodigy.net
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Post by pittsburgcowgirl@prodigy.net on Apr 5, 2002 3:00:13 GMT 1
if agco did not own massey they would not be what they are today massey is the nr 1 in the world the most copyed tractor in the world now they have an yello massey all the equipment agco sent oversees is red with massey on it and claas is good but keep an ey on krone have a nice day  |
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Post by JoeinTX on Apr 5, 2002 7:18:20 GMT 1
Well, AGCOMan, I don't think you're being a prick. I am a big fan of AGCO and what they've done and am a blossoming "Rainbow Warrior." If no one else, Woodbeef will understand and vouch for me. I grew up on a place that had AC and Moline scattered all over it and I love the way that "Allis-Chalmers" rolls off the tongue so much easier than John Deere. However, one has to admit that Massey Ferguson has been the spearhead of AGCO's ten year long offensive in to the equipment market. When AGCO was created there wasn't just a whole lot to call a company. Deutz had shut down practically all of AC's poduction and design by that time-about the only factory capacity that they had was Gleaner. Ratliffe and the boys knew full well that they wouldn't last very long without their own abililty to develop and build their own products independently and the prospect of rebuilding this capability from the ground up all over wasn't economically feasible. The cheapest and easiest way to get it back would be to buy it. Enter Massey Ferguson.... A true full line company that had it's own tractors, combines, implements, parts distribution and a large dealer network and it just so happened that they could be bought. This they did. White was added a year or so later simply beacuse it fell into their lap and added it a few dealers, but they didn't add much to the new company as a whole. So, it was MF who was the only part of this outfit that could truly develop new products, on its own, and do so on a scale to compete with the likes of JD or CIH. It would also become the source of most all new products for this company. The current DT series.....A Massey/Landini design built by Massey. The next generation combines.....A Massey/Gleaner mix.... So to answer you, emphasizing current new AGCO products would be in essence emphasing new MF products more than anything else.
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Post by paddyland on Apr 5, 2002 9:23:57 GMT 1
I dont understand everyones fascination with MF every since the mid 80s when they started getting intense on te electronics the tractors have suffered no end of problems.
The transmission was also a major problem and the predecessor to the 8000 seies models were notorious for trouble well that is what i can gather and the the new models are not much better. The 300 series although dated was a good machine and when changed to the 4000 series there were a few teething problems to say the least.
I am not against any make of tractor and believe everything should be given a go and not just judged on previous machines.
As Agcoboy said they made the right move in buying the Challenger tractors and hope they do a good job. As for the Claas products in the UK dont forgeet these include telehandlers as well and not just tractors although a lot more loaders have to be solld to match a Challenger price tag.
Are the US Agco machines exact copies of the MF as I thought they were seen as a utility tractor and not an agri leader.
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Post by leemsutton on Apr 5, 2002 12:50:55 GMT 1
If AGCO market the challenger line up in that disgraceful Orange colour they'll get laughed at ove rhere in the UK. It the most horrible colour I have ever seen on ag machinery. Its like the old Same.
I know its different over with you guys in Usa and Canada and I understand that but not over here.
The only way forward is for it to be either Fendt green or CAT yellow. Anything different and they wont sell.
Its just the way we are over here.
Lee
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Post by Woodbeef on Apr 5, 2002 12:53:15 GMT 1
I have always given Agco credit for what they have done from the begining. From the get go they realised that the names that were their "Big Guns" over here,were virtual unkowns outside of North America. So they did what Agco is best at,they went shopping! By the time ten years in business rolled around,Agco owned the #1 selling tractor brand world-wide and one of the most technologically advanced names also. But the biggest thing is that these brands are good sellers outside of Agcos home market. This is what Agco despertly needed,1st well known brands on a global scale,2nd companies that have r&d,and updated manufacturing facilities. These were both things that Agco was lacking,and needed to be taken for real.
Agco,and the companies that made up the predecessors were experts in the field they developed what I call "badge-engineering". This idea works if done correctly,and Agco is an expert at it. Just look at GM,Ford and Chrysler to see what I mean. In the begining it was SLH that made some of the product,the Landini. Now it is mostly inhouse,except for some o&v tractors.
Quite a few shortline companies have also been saved by the Rainbow Brigade. One thing that Agco excells at is sales,and always has.
Over here the red,blue,and green guys laugh at Agco,but they better watch out,they are here to stay.
I do not especially like what happened to Claas. I blame Cat for the whole mess not Agco. Cat hung one of their business partners out to dry!! Agco only wants a share of what they've taken over,and to be able to paint the MTs Fendt green and Massey red.
Joe is correct in believing in Agco,at least they are making money. The other majors over here can not make that claim!!
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Post by Si on Apr 6, 2002 22:18:52 GMT 1
Correct me if I'm wrong but Agco swapped the Challenger line for a lot of shares. In my point of view rather than Catterpiller selling the Challengers, They bought into a tractor range, and Agco got one vry big Backer.
Simon
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Post by kenjar on Apr 6, 2002 23:46:01 GMT 1
The Agco-Cat deal should be good for both companies. Agco with the manufactoring and marketing of the Challenger: Cat with a outlet for their components. Another plus for Cat they got rid of 2 plants: the Challenger plant and the joint venture plant with Claas. Claas came up on the short end of the stick. I thought they had done a good job marketing the Cat machines in Europe; but Agco wants to do the maketing now. Really cannot blame them, it is their product now. How it is to be marketed is still the question, as of now.
Like it or not Agco would not be where they are today without Massey. Massey made Agco an international company. It opened the world markets to Agco. The name Massey Ferguson is known world wide.
I have often wondered, did Cat give Claas the same opportunity to buy the Challenger as they did Agco. They say there are two sides to every story.
Just think, last year Agco dumped the Agco-Allis and White tractor lines. The Agco line was their replacement. Something about it being more cost effective to market just the one line here in North America. Guess what , it has not been a year yet and Agco has launched another tractor line. Time will only tell.
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albsec@euskalnet.net
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Post by albsec@euskalnet.net on Apr 7, 2002 4:45:41 GMT 1
I´m surprised none of us seems to think the AGCO-CAT agreement means Cat is really interested in ag business. I think Cat is relying on AGCO because of its experience in marketing farm equipment. If American and European anti-trust legislation allow it, Caterpillar will buy AGCO in a few years, perhaps sooner.
I´m sorry about how things ended for Claas. After all the German company made a good job by marketing the Challenger product under a real farming dealership.
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Post by Red_Painter on Apr 7, 2002 9:01:19 GMT 1
Well stated, European A. I think you are right on many points. I believe the Agco-Cat deal is a backdoor way of getting more involved in Ag and it doesn't seem that Claas got what they deserved after promoting Challengers on the European side. In my opinion, I believe that for the immediate future, Cat will continue to be involved in a more surrogate way through Agco manufacturing and marketing due to how the farm equipment business effects company financial reports, but in the distant future they may absorb Agco outright. Who knows. Seems like anything can happen these days.
Also, I have to agree with Kenjar that Massey really has made Agco a true international producer. I get a little tired of all the Massey bashing sometimes that has it's roots in bad experiences years back. I can't blame those who had bad experiences for complaining, but their new product looks pretty good to me just going on what I've heard from others and read.
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