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Post by pquinn on Sept 20, 2003 22:37:59 GMT 1
Does anyone here think fiat were beter off not merging with ford newholland. anyone wonder what fiat tractors would be like today? What do you think.
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Post by Woodbeef on Sept 20, 2003 22:43:19 GMT 1
You know I've often wondered that myself. I always figured both companies were doing ok on their own!!
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Post by pquinn on Sept 20, 2003 22:46:53 GMT 1
I always liked fiat tractors myself but since the merger im gone off the. the 90 series and the winner are just classics. we have a f110 and it just goes and goes. i wonder had the ever new models designed that no one ever seen.
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Post by JH on Sept 21, 2003 8:33:41 GMT 1
Hi
The first I heard of the merger was back in may 91, and it took a long time to swallow the fact that it was Fiat that had took over FNH. I would have loved to see Ford tractors today without any influence from Fiat, but then again NH is not that bad after all. About Fiat, they might be ok, but here in Denmark they are hard to get rid of as secondhand. Low prices, no good reputation, and I think most of them goes to Greece for very small money.
JH
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Post by Fred on Sept 21, 2003 13:50:42 GMT 1
Interesting Fiats reputation in Denmark is similar to UK in my opinion, seems we think the question is would Ford NH be better not merging with Fiat!!. Could never see Ford buying Fiat and Ford was rumoured for years to be wanting to sell the tractor division. Maybe the purchase of NH was just to help sell the lot! At the time in 1990 Ford mechanics I knew had the comment "well now we will have a decent engine". It certainly was a shock for a lot of people and awful for many diehard Ford fans. Fiat may have been able to continue without Ford but the way things have gone they would have just bought up different companies, say Deere for example ;D ;D ;D.
It's very difficult to think what a tractor range would be like today, it's not certain development would continue on the same road, every now and then a company starts with a clean piece of paper and the new models have little to do with the old ones. Look at Deere's end of two cylinder production to see one of the greatest changes ever. I do wonder how 2+2 development and sales would have gone had Tenneco not closed the Farmall plant.
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Post by eppie on Sept 22, 2003 16:40:24 GMT 1
Yes Ford needed a better engine, the 6.6 liters smoked too much, drink too much and are dead under 1500 rpm if not "manually adjusted" (causing lots more smoke and fuel consumption)
In my opinion, the last good Ford engine was in the Major, the last Majors also had problems with gaskets, oil/water mixing up.
Over here, dealers say: "when an English engine is not leaking, or smoking oil vapors from the sump blowoff, you better put it off fast, because then it has no oil left..
Anyway i think if they would got an engine from a third supplier, and updated the 86-87-8830, they would be still in the race till the current days.. The 40 series (5640 to 8340) is still the current TS (what about TSA ??) and i think a Cummins and the 40 series cab would keep the 8830 going for some years.
I think Fiat needed something with more powershift gears than the Winner series. And they have a name for stupid little quality issues.. But not everyone agrees about that...
What about the 160-90 and 180-90 ?? did they have a Fiat 4 step powershift, or am i wrong ??
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Post by pquinn on Sept 22, 2003 17:55:45 GMT 1
Big 90 Series (130-90, 140-90, 160-90, 180-90) Had the option i think of the powershift gearbox. ill look it up later from the book i have.
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Post by jose on Sept 22, 2003 18:04:04 GMT 1
hey pquinn 130-90 140-90 160-90 180-90 with power shift where has reverse ?? . mechanical shuttle ?? . I saw a photo of 180-90 power shift , has two handle : one ranger I , II ,III ,IV and another gear 1 2 3 4 .
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Post by JH on Sept 22, 2003 18:27:04 GMT 1
The Fiatagri 130/140/160 and 180/90 did have the choice of a four speed powershift. As I see it Fords real problem before the sold there agriculturedivision was the lack of "truly" new models. Even though the 10 and 30 series tractors were good, some of the basic things in them was old develepoments, as for the 6,6 L engine this was more or less designed back in 68 for the 8000 model. Not really up to the match of a 186 hp in a heavy machine like the 8830 with a Funk tranny taking that many hp. This made them underpowered and people gave them another 20 or 40 hp, which most them couldent handle. The 40 series were good, and the 7,5 L PowerStar engine should have been used in the 30 series! At the time of the selling to Fiat, FNH part of Ford Motor Company was as little as 2% of there buisness, so they didnt want to invest that many money in new models, maybe because of there comparison to carmaking, they want to sell large numbers of units before making somthing new. As a diehard Ford man I didnt like the merger, as I dont like all those mergers and byeouts we have seen. Wouldnt it be great if there still was a Ford, Fiat, IH, Case, Volvo etc. because they were so different then. Today they are owned by small numbers of big firms, that dont give a s**t about history and tradition. My two pennies - JH
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Post by Aidan1 on Sept 22, 2003 18:54:50 GMT 1
Actually Jesper, I think Ford made the mistake of holding onto old models for too long. The Series 10 (even up to the 1990s) was a good tractor, but by that stage it was really starting to show its age, I mean effectively, it was just an evolution of the 5000, 7000 range which first came out in the 1960s ... even then, the first 40 series were not very well built. It wasn't till the 60 series tractors that New Holland built a really worthwhile tractor at that size, it took that long.
Same with the bigger tractors, the TWs were a great piece of kit (and the 30 series too, even if it was too heavy for that 6.6l) but by the early 1990s they were well out of date. At that stage, even the big Fiats were as good, with that big 8.1 (or was it 8.3?) liter engine. Awkward as hell though.
Drove a TG for a couple of days recently, not a big step up from the genesis technologically, but a sweet engine and it'll turn on a dime. Just took a little while for them to really get it right I s'pose. That and a Cummins ...
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Post by pquinn on Sept 22, 2003 21:11:30 GMT 1
New Holland 8360's and todays tm are basically fiat winners even the shuttle command in the tm are winner series eco speed transmissions, but with ford cabs. correct me if im wrong
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Post by JH on Sept 22, 2003 21:54:17 GMT 1
Ups - forgot to log in............
The TM / 60/M series use 7,5 L Ford Powerstar engines, Cabs similar to the ones used on the 40 and Ts series. The Tranny was made for the 60/M series, no more Fiat than Ford in that one.
Adrian1 - I totally agree with you, on the fact that Ford hold on too long to those 10 and 30 series tractors. The changes between the Q cab, Force II and Generation III models are small. The 40 series reputation is great here, maybe some problems at the beginning, but no more than to most new series of tractors get.
JH.
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Post by pquinn on Sept 22, 2003 23:50:37 GMT 1
I Suppose you could say the same for the fiat. For example 80 series and 90 series nearly look the same the bonnet and cab are nearly the same for the past twenty years or more. The supercomfort cab on the 80 series looks the same as the one on todays New Holland 110-90. It would be nice to see a "No Frills" tractor based on the 110 - 90 even with the old cab and new bonnet, because even to this day the supercomfort cab still looks quite good.
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Post by Aidan1 on Sept 23, 2003 7:53:13 GMT 1
The front axle on the series 60 was taken from the Winner, along with some of the linkage components as far as I can remember. Thats about it really.
As for the Fiat, the big 80 series tractors had very few differences from the mid 1990s -90 series, but they did have a powershift option and an electronic linkage option, which were very important. They still look good though, contractor near where I used to live still has a 160-90 (in a fleet of new Masseys) and it looks fairly modern. Pity about the 30k box though.
As for the build quaility on the series 40, the first ones that came out here (Ireland) were mixed. Place where I used work got a 7840SL and 8340SLE around the same time, 7840 never gave any trouble, 8340 did (electronic linkage, cab mounts, seals on back end, powershift). Then again, by the time the 8340 left, it had done over 6000hrs without any problems in the last 4000 so it wasn't all bad. The series 60 have a much better reputation here though
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Post by Woodbeef on Sept 23, 2003 12:19:24 GMT 1
The Hesstons over here still hold a good value,and have held up very well over the years. Not many of the Winners and 94 series were available with the Fiat name for very long. But the ones that are around seem to be holding their own both on price and reputation.
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