ADD MORE HP TO YOUR CLAAS HARVESTER

[chopperdoctor]

Instead of looking for a bigger harvester, why not add some HP to the engine of your 492 series machine you already have?...I did....any takers?

[adamL]

if by adding power you mean chipping it might end in tears. You use your choppers at high idle (no load) but when they are working they are likely to be at or near full load. The engine is likely to be a derated version, so it might have the capacity to develop more power, but for prolonged periods? Rather you than me.

[chopper doctor]

Yes of course I mean chipping it. Ran an 870 Speedstar for 3 weeks straight, 12 hr. days in 18 to 22 ton corn. Increased ground speed, engine ran cooler, used less fuel, and when in dryer corn could handle a tighter corn cracker. I think performance issues would have occured by now. A substantial amount of research and testing went into the decision to employ the chip on a contractor operation. I have more info if interested.

[joblo]

I would love to see your info. Is the mod simply taking it back to tier 2 emissions, which is what it kind of sounded like to me or is it an actual horsepower upgrade. At any rate I wpould never do this to a mercedes motor in a chopper. Those things seem like they put them together with bubble gum and baling wire, for the reliability that we get with them. The inline six's seem to be pretty good as well as the 442, but forget about that 502 piece of garbage.

[adamL]

chopper said:

Yes of course I mean chipping it. Ran an 870 Speedstar for 3 weeks straight, 12 hr. days in 18 to 22 ton corn. Increased ground speed, engine ran cooler, used less fuel, and when in dryer corn could handle a tighter corn cracker. I think performance issues would have occured by now. A substantial amount of research and testing went into the decision to employ the chip on a contractor operation. I have more info if interested.

That is only 252 hours, you would not have needed to change the oil once. Hardly an endurance test. They test motor bike engines longer than that. I would be very interested to see the scientific equation that shows that when you increase the power you decrease the amount of fuel you burn.

[Bernhard]

Maybe we should use our choppers at zero gravity?

[chopper doctor]

adaml,

252 hrs....and counting. We ran out of corn! The endurance of this machine with it's recent modifications is far from over. This is a 6 cyl. variety 870 Speedstar. The machine has over 3000 hrs. , as well as a chip, other performance enhancing items were installed to see if in combination a more efficient machine could be developed rather than going out and buying a new one.
Scientific equation? More horsepower + improved capacity means the machine will work less to get the same job done at the same ground speed, thus using less fuel. This machine and hopefully others could easily handle more ground speed without sacrificing fuel consumption. The savings on fuel after approx. 1700 acres was 15% over the same job last year in almost identical conditions.
Oh, and by the way, after corn we changed the oil anyways. We sent it out to the lab for analysis and no adverse qualities were noted. Don't be so quick to condemn this project, it might be a good thing.

[adamL]

252 hours is not endurance.

If the only difference between the machine you run and the model above is fueling you will probably get away with it, but there is a reason the manufacturer put that particular chip in the machine.

Unless the chip as some magical properties that can summon horses from out of the ether or some how make your engine more efficent then it will use more juice. The only place the engine is getting the energy from is the fuel tank and the only way it can make more horses is use more fuel. However, you might use less per acre if you are able to go faster. But it does beg the question, why didn't you buy a bigger machine in the first place?

Is it a chip from the engine manufacturer or one from Bills Box of Bolt On Bodgit Bits? If the latter, why isn't Bill from Bills Box of Bolt on Bodgit Bits working for the manufacturer who must surely have more recources than an after market company. Does the supplier of the chip offer any warranty that covers any damage done by his chippery? He probably said it won't hurt a thing, but does his money go where his mouth is?

In 2005 we had a new combine and she was short of puff. The operator saw that the engine could develop 500 horses, nearly 200 more than were on offer. When the techs came out to it laptops were plugged in and it was found that the motor was doing what it was meant to do and all horses were correct and present. The operator enquired about unleashing a few more horses and was told that yes the motor could make more power, but not in this application and if it were increased in power he would not be able to keep it cool. A favourable deal was done and the combine got swapped for the next model up which is identical in all bar engine, which is bigger and has a bit more power and works just fine.

[chopper doctor]

Adam,

I don't blame you for being a sceptic, most people are. If it's too good to be true it probably is.

I may have led you to misunderstand what we are doing here. Me and my team have taken a machine that was considered for replacement, more than likely by a larger one. This would probably cost the customer an extra $30,000 US. Regardless, the question was raised " can the existing machine be improved in performance to avoid purchasing a larger one ". So, we went to work.
We develop our own custom programmed chips so we do not have to rely on someone else's " chippery " as you put it. The key is to manipulate the location of the torque curve in respect to the pulse width modulation. This is no secret. A lot of extra fuel is not neccessarily needed to get more power.
We then installed a larger higher capacity corn cracker which increased the ease of crop flow over the stock model. Combined with specially designed accelerator paddles, high performance shear bar, and smooth roll scraper ( all prototypes ). Lighter, synthetic gear oil in the engine fan gear box and engine auxillary drive gear box. And the list goes on.
We are skilled technicians, engineers, machinists, and programmers. As mentioned above, alot went into this...I guess we'll see how it goes.
We made the whole machine more efficient, not just throwing a hot chip into it and see what happens. I just did not want you to misunderstand what I meant.

Best regards

[joblo]

We then installed a larger higher capacity corn cracker which increased the ease of crop flow over the stock model.

This is likely to be the single biggest factor that helped you. The KP is a huge factor in fuel burnt/horsepower lost. Was it a sherer(spelling?) kp?? Number of teeth per roll? Where was this machine run at? What kind of weather? Extremely hot? Cooler, what time of day was it running? Paddles can make a difference but not nearly as much as some other factors associated with the accelarator. I dont see huge gains being made by a smooth roll scraper but I am all for longer wearing. The same could be said for the shearbar unless they were getting round then there will also be losses. Is the shearbar simply for longer wear? Is this new stuff by a new company or from the regular aftermarket people who have been doing this for a while? What were all the wear liners like throughout the machine the year before? These would be huge factors in the difference you are seeing. I just want to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. If you want a true good test all these factors need to be repeated. Was it running with all new liners and wear parts last year like it was this year. If not throw your results in the garbage.
I am guessing this was already a tier 2 engine since it has 3000 hrs, or was it not. I doubt it though since you only got 250 hrs in a corn season. Which by the way is not what I would call a test, more like a trial. I dont doubt that you can make more power with a chip, as that is proven easily in the diesel pick up market, but there are also a lot of failures with those too, and I think that their quality dwarfs mercedes. I would be interested to know how long this engine will run this way compared to stock. This is in my opinion the best engine to try it on out of the line up. I hope that you get good data and run time hours so we can check it out. I am very much interested in the outside conditions/ ambient temps.

[advice]

chopperdoctor said:

Instead of looking for a bigger harvester, why not add some HP to the engine of your 492 series machine you already have?...I did....any takers?

You mean like....www.google.................oh never mind. I'm staying out of trouble for a little bit

chopper said:

Adam,

I don't blame you for being a sceptic, most people are. If it's too good to be true it probably is.

I may have led you to misunderstand what we are doing here. Me and my team have taken a machine that was considered for replacement, more than likely by a larger one. This would probably cost the customer an extra $30,000 US. Regardless, the question was raised " can the existing machine be improved in performance to avoid purchasing a larger one ". So, we went to work.
We develop our own custom programmed chips so we do not have to rely on someone else's " chippery " as you put it. The key is to manipulate the location of the torque curve in respect to the pulse width modulation. This is no secret. A lot of extra fuel is not neccessarily needed to get more power.
We then installed a larger higher capacity corn cracker which increased the ease of crop flow over the stock model.(And takes about 5% less horsepower by itself) Combined with specially designed accelerator paddles, high performance shear bar, and smooth roll scraper ( all prototypes ). Lighter, synthetic gear oil in the engine fan gear box and engine auxillary drive gear box(again ). And the list goes on. OH dont stop there keep going with your list........
We are skilled technicians, engineers, machinists, and programmers. As mentioned above, alot went into this...I guess we'll see how it goes.
We made the whole machine more efficient, not just throwing a hot chip into it and see what happens. I just did not want you to misunderstand what I meant.

Best regards

[chopper doctor]

joblo,

I appreciate your interest in this machine and this project. Your questions are VERY relevant.
The chip and the corn cracker were the two major factors, and yes it was a Scherer ( 85 tooth rolls w/ standard 40% differential pulleys ). The ambient conditions were seasonally normal mid 40's to mid 50's (F) this year, last year were slightly cooler. All the aftermarket wear items came from a well established company who was willing to work with us on making some improvements to insure a good quality cut throughout the corn season.
I admire your concern for equal comparisons, but at the beginning of each corn season all the liners were checked and/or replaced if necessary. A well as knives,SB, ledge, and drum bottom.
I believe it is a tier 2 engine and all was well at the end of this season, we will be following this machine through 2009 ( providing that it holds together ).
We did the best we could so far (went way over budget) and produced some very impressive results. I am always open for serious suggestions, I'll keep you posted if we try something new.

[adamL]

chopper doctor sir,

You have changed half the processor to make the crop run more smoothly and changed the chip and you are saying the chip saved the fuel. Why not try it with the OEM chip, then you will know whether it is the chip or the other mods.

Surely the manufacturer knew what the optimum torque characturistics should be, how can yours be that much better that a company that has been building them for years?

I drove one of a fleet of four combines that had the engines set up wrongly and the techs (one was the senior engineer that disigned the machines) came out and armed with a 5mm hex put the torque where it should be. That was just a mistake/ break down of communications. When the machines are set up properly it is only going to be twiddling around the edges and you might be able to again an advantage by knowing exactly your circumstances, altitude, crop, ambiant temp, where as the manufacturer know not where it is going to be working so has to set it up to work anywhere.

[chopper doctor]

The chip will give you more power and allow you to save fuel.......Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't . You go figure it out. I'm done beating my head against the wall on this topic. You missed the point, go believe whatever you want.

[joblo]

Those temp's are pretty cool. I would be wiling to bet that may be part of the reason things are working well. Where we are ;located the temp is typically 95-110. As I am sure you know heat kills things. I believe that one of the main reasons we see so much trouble with the merc. is heat and dust. The 502 is maxed out for horsepower/liter. So an extreme condition like we have if all things are not perfect you will be having a failure. It wont be if just when. I would love to see this chip run in my conditions, but I sure would not be the guinea pig. I talked to a couple of guys today and they are running chipped 502's and they swear by it. They say that they wont take delivery unless its been done. It just sounds crazy to me but they dont have the hot conditions.