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Post by eppie on Nov 26, 2003 20:40:55 GMT 1
David W, again you say what Deere drivers said about Vario in 1997: "It will only be for special applications." Just as farmers said 40 years ago about MFWD. Or what they said about the Fendt front axle suspension. Or anything else. Just as soon as the spin doctors spin the fan, they will convince everyone to buy it. Richard S, i know it's because the 3% faster run of the front wheels, but the tractor does jump over its lugs when driving slowly. What you say about hitting a brake to turn tight with 4wd is also true: The differential will make the other wheel go faster if one is braked. On a muddy street i can, sometimes, drive faster when i hit one brake on our Deutz: when one wheel is blocked by the brake, the other will double it's speed. So, when you hit a brake to steer, the rear wheel will run faster than the front wheels, instead of slower. About the "real" powerhop: once i was moving my brother's old 18m3 manure tanker, and got stuck with the 5245 in a mud spot, my neighbor came along, wanting to borrow our bale carrier. He helped me out, first we attached the cable between the Zetor's front latch and the Renault's low drawbar, a trailer knob. that made that old 651 shake till the bolts jumped out of the toolbox !! ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) When i convinced him to hook it on the 3p top link's place, we could pull it out quite easily with almost floating front wheels on the 651. My neighbor didn't want to hook the chain high because he was afraid to pull it over on it's back, but the mud was too weak to pull that hard. In this case it was indeed a case of rear axle load. When the chain was horizontal, not disturbing the balance, it was an easy pull.
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Post by Woodbeef on Nov 26, 2003 21:18:44 GMT 1
Hey Doc, Just how long was this manure tanker? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ? How much did it weigh full? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) 18m3.....now lets see that would be more than 18 cubic yards right???
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Post by JD Kid on Nov 26, 2003 21:31:43 GMT 1
What the F@#K!!!!!! what kind of retarded dick head would tell anyone to pull off a high point!!! F#$K"S sake ya would have osh and every govt agency on ya ass so hard ya would be bankrupt .. jump's over it's lugs whan driveing slow it would do the same when going fast or do these wonder tractors a multi speed transfer case ? i think ya will find ya have not got 3% or ya might have too much leed if ya can't switch in and out of FWA (note to people ya don't own a 4WD ) on a hard road ya set up is wrong!! the only way ya going faster on a muddy road is call lock up ya how stopping one side will make the other speed up would be the 8th wonder of the world .. catch ya JD Kid
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Post by orange on Nov 26, 2003 22:14:52 GMT 1
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Post by Woodbeef on Nov 26, 2003 23:47:43 GMT 1
Yup Orange,I know where you're coming from on that one!!!!!!
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Post by eppie on Nov 27, 2003 19:59:45 GMT 1
Jumping over it's lugs, at higher speeds you dont notice it. About the high drawing point, most trailers are attached to the high drawbar. governmental rule is that 20% of the tractor's weight must be kept on the front axle. No problems with law here. Is that really a big issue in the U.S ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) The manure tanker was empty, but when pulling it when it's loaded, the 5245 can just hold it's revs in the 5th speed. It cannot get it any faster in 5th gear than it pulls at 2400 rpm in 4th gear. The 6718 doesn't really have big problems to get it at 35 km/h. JD Kid, about your miracle: "Miracles are no longer a miracle when they can be scinetifically explained." Science lesson #1: Does anyone know why an ABS braking system stops faster ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ABS stops faster because the dynamic friction (wheel braking till it alllmost blocks, but keeps rotating) is bigger than static friction (wheel just blocks and slips till the vehicle stops) So, when one wheel is blocked, it has static friction with the ground. This is less than the dynamic friction of the driven wheel, that is not slipping over the surface.Exactly the same things happen if you try to jump start a tractor, when the engine is stuck: Instead of both wheels stopping, one wheel drives and one wheel turns in opposite direction.
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Post by Xerion on Nov 27, 2003 20:14:26 GMT 1
Renze sorry if this is off subject ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) But I would really like to hear about this 18 M3 tanker behind your Zetor. what sort of tanker is it ? how many axes ? what is its unladen weight and also its loaded weight ? As you know I work as a contractor and slurry injection is about 80 % of our work . what am I doing wrong that I need 180 ps plus to pull a 23 M3 tanker (only for transport ) and you can do all this with your Zetor from which I gather is less than 80 ps . please help me out as from what I have read I can save myself a lot of €
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Post by eppie on Nov 27, 2003 20:22:32 GMT 1
It is an old truck trailer with a dolly axle in front.
It rolls on 3 axles with super-single truck trailer tires, at 8 bar of pressure (low roll friction on the road)
In the field it bogs down even when it's empty (you know the story) but on the road, the 6718 with the truck trailer tanker keeps up with the 5245 with the 6m3 Veenhuis with tires at 0.8 bar of pressure.
So, if you want to save money, buy a central tire pressure inflation system and some good Michelin tires that can take 4 bar on the road, and are also flexible enough to be run at 0.8 bar in the field.
On transport, you could save money on the tire inflation (hmm how much $$$ is a CTISystem ??), but you DO need the horses in the field.
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Post by JD Kid on Nov 28, 2003 9:09:56 GMT 1
Hi ya RENZE the point i was trying to make is hitching to pull a stuck object off a unaproved pulling point ,as ya know there are alot of people on the web these days that take some ideas to heart with out fully knowing what they are doing ,the way ya said it could be taken as a good way to move large stuck objects if any one working for me tryed the same move a thick ear and maybe being fired could be on the cards here (NZ) the govt would have ya by the balls if anything went wrong ie tractor fliped ...ok ABS ya partly right the way ya have writen it it sound like 1/2 wornen brakes would work better than new ones we both know this is not the case.. ABS senses the amount of forse on the brakes then works by grabing and releasing they are good but shake like hell on ice or slipply as the ABS can work out the why the wheel locks with low forse ,a poor man can do the same thing by pumping the brakes to stop the wheels locking ..now the last thing i think ya will find ya do not speed up the wheel might but that is due to it traveling on a longer axles if like ya saying the wheel speed up a FWA would bind up also ya will note that this only happens free wheeling not under load ..as for wheels running both ways the diff carrer rotateing around a fixed pinion will make this happen i think the 8 wonder still stands ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) catch ya JD Kid
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Post by eppie on Nov 28, 2003 18:29:10 GMT 1
Sure, you have to know what you're doing, and use a low gear and keep your foot D*mn close to the clutch pedal if anything happens. About those unaware of what they are doing, i guess the average AgMachinery board visitor knows what he's doing. I dont think you need to protect them from my riskful ideas, i force nobody to follow me.. When i pull oak stubs or anything hard to move, i prefer hooking up the chain to the top link mount of our earth bucket. The bucket will not allow the tractor to climb up too high, (bucket hits the ground) and i can adjust the pulling height, to adjust the weight that is transferred to the tractor with it. What i said, is that when you hit one brake till the wheel is not rotating anymore, the other wheel will double the speed. A normal functioning diff distributes power (= speed x force) equally, when your're driving a straight lane without wheel slip. When one wheel is blocked, the diff puts the speed to one wheel. very simple. In my compare, i did not made clear enough that the blocked wheel's static friction (on a street with mud on it) is less than the dynamic friction of the wheel that is still rotating, not slipping. In my talk about the Deutz, you should know that it has no MFD so this is a bit of a different situation than hitting a brake on an fwd in the turn. About the wheels rotating both ways, i used this to prove the rule that dynamic friction is bigger than static friction. The forward running wheel, where both surfaces have the same contact speed, has more friction than the reversing wheel, that slips over the surface. I said this, focusing on the friction subject, not about how a differential works. Hey guys, next time you hear anything that you just cannot believe, please be so kind try to get a clarification in a gentle way, like Xerion did, instead of disrespectful laughing at someone... ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by JD Kid on Nov 28, 2003 21:10:29 GMT 1
Hi ya RENZE ya idea will still get ya fired if ya worked for me sorry but thats the way i work and from what i can recall the same way all the people i have worked for too ..now ya wheel thing are ya sticking to ya guns on ya idea!!! under full load or duels ya saying stopping or nealy stopping one side the other side will X2 so if ya were doing 20Kph that wheel will go to 40kph in under.001 of a second i think ya will find at 1 kph and 40 kph the increse on the driven wheel will be the same under a no load turn due to the fact the outside turning wheel is covering more ground during the turn ..the only way the outside wheel could go faster is if ya turn the braked wheel backwards faster than the input shaft (this will happen on steep hills the forse of the tractor will over ride motor brakeing like renze's stuck motor )a wheel can only drive as fast as the input shaft is driveing ,on a hydro dozer diffrent story the oil to drive both tracks now drives one so ya would get a incress of speed but in a gear /pinion set up if the input is the same the "driveing" (thats a wheel being driven not free wheeling ie pulling )speed of the wheel is the same .. catch ya JD Kid
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Post by eppie on Nov 28, 2003 21:36:57 GMT 1
The speed will double if one wheel is blocked, and the input shaft of the diff is keeping at teh same revolutions.
In practice, the engine dies down in revs quickly, instead of the wheel actually doubling it's speed.
Sorry if you disagree, but you cannot convince me. There is one input shaft, and two output shaft, the diff gear distributes the power over both output shafts. teh diff differentiates the speed and force over both output (wheel) shafts. So they can go faster than the input shaft.
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Post by orange on Nov 28, 2003 23:48:06 GMT 1
Renze, I look forward to seeing your entry in the WRC!!! probably be the first time a deutz wins it!!!
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Post by JD Kid on Nov 29, 2003 2:16:26 GMT 1
Hi ya's so now the motor loses1/3 of it's rpm so the wheel dose not speed up i getting the pic now i have always wondered why the revs drop while turning with a brakes aplyed ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) i also note that this must only happen on some brands as i can't recall the ford's CIH,JD'S valtra's fait's, sames,and others i have driven in the last 20+ years droping the revs while brakeing or dose this only happen on flat land as i have no idea what that would be like to drive on ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ..so corect me if i'm wrong here if i stop one side of a axel the other 1/2 will be 2 times as fast and as we already know the tractor or what ever has the power to drive it so if i made one wheel a ilder ie cut the shaft off and stoped the diff drive on one side i would get twice the speed out of it or a very good over drive ,this idea have ya though of aproching any of the F1 teams or any of the drag raceing teams sure it will pull to one side but in 4wd with opozing sides done this will even this out .. catch ya JD Kid
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Post by JD Kid on Nov 29, 2003 8:15:05 GMT 1
Hi ya Renze hey man ya want to go 50 -50 on who's right ?? i'll be big eneff to say i'm partly wrong but not 100% wrong .ya speed thing has a few probs with the idea and as for what kinda brakeing it don't matter a rat's @r$e ..on a 2 WD the increse could be higher than 2 times on a FWA it will be lower it is not the speed that is incresed but the touque(?) now if factors are in place 3 or more things can happen 1 the tractor could speed up this will happen if the extra touque can be used to pull faster 2 it will drop the rpms as the motor can't put out the touque at those rpms 3 the speed will stay the same as unbraked due to the tractor not being over or under worked this will only happen with a 2wd on a FWA the front axel will act as a brake slowing down any gains that could happen .the outside wheel will spin faster but only to cover the ground in the arc it is traveling it will not make where the driver is sitting move any faster ,this is the point i was makeing the driver in the seat does not incress forward speed regardless of the wheels under brakeing sure the wheel maybe faster but the forward true forward speed dose not change ...i can prove this idea by getting a radar tractor beside mine as i have a wheel senser on one wheel i know it dose change but forward sheep does not .. catch ya JD Kid
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