Re: How long untill evolution breaks out?

[Laapa]

Uh, this gets strange but here's the top of this topic (rewritten).
How long before we will see the following as standard features on the largest mfwd tractors

* 250 + hp (JD has it, CIH has it)
* CVT, stepless trannys (Fendt has it, smaller tractors have it)
* Suspended front and rear axles (JD will have it soon)
Fully reversible driversposition (Valtra S-series and Fendt has it)
* Semiautomatic steering, GPS guided or tracing row/previous tillagepass (JD, Cat and a few more are working on it), driver will still turn on headlands and can focus on watching the implement.

The reason I ask is: a few years back JD stopped selling the 8400 as a 2wd. Now the 8520 is not available without ILS suspention (can't transfer that much power to the ground otherwise, JD claims). Fendt 926 is not available without a CVT tranny.
All of the above features might be luxury in many cases, BUT historicaly in the largest mfwd tractors the manufacturers have come up with such ideas to push the ridig frame desig a little further. (The 2+2 concept is a creature of such thinking too.)
When just adding a bigger engine won't work, such advancements may be what it takes to get that little extra bit of workrate out of the machine. This way customers who, for some reason (weight, cost, versatility, mobility), do not wish to take the step to articulated tractors won't have to.

[FarmerJohn]

Don't worry Laapa. It's oke again. I just post my message again. Webmaster could you delete the Re: thing? Here is my original message (i think nobody else understands what's going on here):

Never, is my opinion. Every manufacturer will have those options within five years is my guess. But it won't be standard. Not all farmers, and US-farmers for one, are willing to pay for those features. That's not so strange, they don't need every option, so why shove it up their throat. I think those large companies have to build tractors that suits the needs of the custumors and that's why there will be lots and lots of options on a simple tractor.
If the options makes the tractor cheaper than it's a whole different story. Also if you can't build a tractor without such an option than you just have to or else you won't be able to sell the tractor at all (i'm thinking of ILS here). But is Vario or GPS guidance really in all cases necessary on a 250+ hp tractor?

[Woodbeef]

Maybe someday all manufacturers will build like Valtra. They would then be able to do as the auto industry does,and offer everything from a stripper model,to fully loaded. It could also offer no-tech,low-tech,and hi-tech. That way it would be your choice as to how much,or how little you wanted. This way would help to keep tractors affordable for the masses.

I think also that the more available choices in models the better. Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to have one-size-fits-all.

[Laapa]

There was a post on another discussionboard a while back suggesting combine-manufacturers should only build the largest machines, and those who does not need that size would rely on a wider selection of used machines.
The idea was prices would decrease if only one model was built.
Though the idea may seem far fetched, I wonder what has happened to the really small combines today. Can you even buy a new combine the size of a Monster combine 50 years ago.
When I was a kid we got a 100 hp BM 800, it was a huge machine to me back then, and in my heatr i still think of it that way. In some years a 200 hp tractor might not seem large at all. Powershift is not considered an extravagance today, perhaps a CVT won't in ten years either.

[Woodbeef]

Also remember that different areas have different needs,and wants. Look at the pick-up hitch styles (over here except on Valtras they are pretty well unknown).Over here if you put a cab on anything over 50 hp it better have a/c as standard equipment. Last time I checked it was still an option on most tractors in Europe. The sod buster boys must have a full powershift,to the livestock sector it does not seem that important. Left hand power shuttles are another thing,the livestock guys want them,the sod busters are not as picky.

I think that when companies "pigeon hole"themselves with only one tranny,and no options etc.... they are only building for their stockholders,not their customers!!

[[e-mail]]

Too many choices will make it impossible for the dealers to service properly.  Dealers rely on some degree of "mass quantity" of components.  If each unit is unique then I know there will never be parts on the shelf when I need them.

[[e-mail]]

Here's a good autosteer website - I think they are on the leading edge of this technology. Right now, it is used in California agriculture. They do some wild things out there.
www.beelinenavigator.com/home.htm

Have to agree with Woodbeef on his Valtra idea. They should build the "plain jane" model, and the "linda loaded" model. IE we run a TW-35, and it is just a pure power unit, nothing more, nothing less. It'd be nice to have all the toys of a Genesis or 8020 or Fendt, but we don't need them. When we plow, we're only using two gears - 4L and 4H. Same with the rest of our field work. Now some other farmers have jobs where they need all the gears without clutching.

Who knows - its interesting to follow.

[[e-mail]]

I've spoken to several dealers about this, truth is: There will always be people whining about how expensive everything is and how they would like to see a model without all the gizmos, just a good plain tractor.
Thing is though, those people don't buy new tractors! It has been tried over and over again, any dealer who gets a load of "plain jane" models will be stuck with them and will eventually have to let them go for too little money. The "Linda loaded"-achines will ALWAYS be sold. in many cases to people who will never even use half of the gizmos in them.

[Woodbeef]

Ahh...... but see that is where,made to order tractor really shine. You can get anyway you want it!

I agree with you on the massed produced econo models. They say they want them,but only pay lip service to the idea. But then again maybe the price difference is not actually all that great over the loaded models.

Hhmmm......now lets  just say you needed a bare bones 70-80 hp mfd loader tractor. How much cheaper would the econo model have to be for you to buy it(lets talk majors here CIH,NH,JD,MF)? For me to consider it I'd say 25% or so. How about you guys?

[Jack_D_Kid]

Hi ya's
like woodbeef has said if buying a valtra ya can spec it to suit you ..BUT when selling what you wanted may not suit someone else .add ons cost money and in the dealers eyes these are worth haveing but in real life some things don't realy stack up .GPS is good if tramlineing or needed for spraying/fert spreding most of the time man's eye will do the job..twin steering good if running big mowers ,mulchers or anything ya want to look over  but for common joe it's another cost ..old type powershift talk to baling contractors !!!! F/R is good tho ..newer front axles with air bags or rams ,i have driven some tractors with this and on the road at 40+kph yep it's better, in the field i'd have to say a good con job if it inproved traction by 5% but only 10%of the time it's needed, is that not only .5% improvement??? ..i realy feel farmer will vote with there cash in years to come if china used the blueprints of the 7200 CIH, 5100CIH 50/55/60 model JD's ,etc etc what people would buy ..
catch ya
JD Kid

[[e-mail]]

You stole my words, Jack

I thought about it last night too, and what I think is that there would be a use for the plain jane model

Think about it. John Deere is trying to get Russia back on it's feet again, and other countries as well. Why not produce a tractor like this

-150-250hp
-16x4 transmission with hi/lo
-3 hydraulics

basically, rebuild the 50 series. Build them in Mexico, or other low wage, but high quality countries. Sell them all over the world.

New Holland is doing it right now with the 5610S, 6610S, and 7610S.

And if americans want a simple tractor, sell it there too.

Just a thought......

[Laapa]

I know John Deere made some extensive reasearch a few years back on the market for a "Basic" 8000 series tractor.
No powershift, ROPS, no Controll-arm etc. Never happened. There wasn't enough demand.

Another thought: how did Valtra manage to spread the rumor thar their tractors are more "custom built" than anyone elses?
I know JD (and I assume other manufacturers as well) build every machine to the exact specifications of the indivudual customer. Thing is though, the Customer is in many cases one or several dealers who order several machines to build a stock and have to estimates witch features will be in demand. I assume Valtra dealers do the same.
If you want a custom tractor, you are welcome. You just have to wait (and pay) for it.

[Woodbeef]

It's not a rumor about Valtra it is a fact. Grab a brochure,or wander through their website www.valtra.com  They purposely build from orders exactly what the customer wants. The dealers have some demo units,but order the customer's tractors by specification. It takes about 8-10 weeks to get your personal Valtra tractor over  here.

With the other manufacturers it usually takes 4 months or more to fill an ordered tractor. Dealers over here would sooner put you into an in-stock tractor then order what you want.

[[e-mail]]

In Holland we have the Classic models of New Holland TS and TM tractors. They have mechanical 3 point hitch, no fender extensions, smaller mirrors and no cab suspension. They seem to be quite popular with farmers. I don't know the price difference but most dairy farmers don't need the luxurious options in my opinion. When I buy used I prefer the mechanical stuff where I can see what I buy. The biggest lemons are most of the times the ones with repeating problems where you don't know where they come from which is usually the case with electronic stuff. Mechanical stuff is usually easier to fix. Also consider resale value. Why would you think there are almost none used Ford 1000 and 600 series tractors in Europe? They are bullet proof long lasting mechanical tractors where there's always a market for.

[Laapa]

Again mr Woodbeef. Valtra builds every tractor to the customers specification, as does Deere and many others UNLESS you order a tractor from existing stock at the dealers.
If Valtra takes 8-10 weeks and JD 4 months, what does that tell you.
You may not pay the dealer to keep a stock (this keeps down the dealers costs) but you are instead paying the Finns to run an oversized factory.
Perhaps I should not say oversized, but apparently more so than anyone with a longer delivery time.
In a market where Valtra is an odd brand, such as Canada, I too would not keep a bunch of tractors in stock if I was a dealer. That would mean increasing my overhead cost and risk having a bunch of unsold tractors.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love for Valtra to produce worldwide-bestselling tractors. They are after all the ones carrying the Volvo BM legacy on right here in Scandinavia. But when that happens, we will truly see a longer deliverytime for those machines (and more dealers might be willing to carry a stock).