|
|
Post by Jarno Reulink on Oct 15, 2002 8:59:28 GMT 1
Does anyone have more information now about the new MASSEY FERGUSON's with continue variable transmission? I've heard that it is not sure that Massey Ferguson will use the Fendt vario system. It's also possible that they use their own concept (GIMA)  . Introduction will be at the Sima 2003, there have to be more pictures/ info now I think...  ......... Jarno Reulink Holland |
|
|
|
Post by eppie on Oct 15, 2002 21:26:29 GMT 1
I yhave heard they use the Fendt vario generation I as soon as Fendt has generation II ready.
rumors are, that Renault will do something with belt type variators, first to be developed with Nissan, through their car divisions, and then adapted for agricultural use. But that rumor existed few years ago, when a Fendt vario in an MF was still "not done"
|
|
|
|
Post by Jarno Reulink on Oct 16, 2002 9:06:15 GMT 1
Thank you Renze, it could be, but Massey Ferguson and Renault have their own factory (GIMA), so why use the Fendt CVT (okey, AGCO), when they have their own transmission factory?
Jarno Reulink
Holland
|
|
|
|
Post by eppie on Oct 16, 2002 16:32:48 GMT 1
maybe just because it's cheaper.
And it would be better, the Fendt vario has some practical experience, but the Deutz engine is sh*t. Hanging a good ol' Sisu in front of the vario would make a Vario tractor with comparable reliability to the CVT/CVX (also with Sisu engine) or the Autopowr.
|
|
|
|
Post by Friedhelm on Oct 16, 2002 19:56:55 GMT 1
AFAIK it will be the Vario Gearbox. I would also be interested in pictures.
|
|
|
|
Post by Xavier on Oct 17, 2002 1:41:06 GMT 1
Hi Renze
Well i haven't bought a 411 for an old 611 like your friend, but Fendt 700 seems to me a very good machine, and its Deutz motor is a plus point. Come to see some DLG specs (suppose no problem about it):
about nominal pto power esp fuel cons
Case CVX 150: 99.8kw 263
Steyr 9145: 94.3 272
Fendt 714: 97.1 240
about maximal pto power kw esp fuel cons
CVX 150: 106.9 233
9145: 99 248
714: 109.7 225
average fuel consumption
CVX150: 21.6 337
9145: 21.3 354
714: 18.1 292
maximal torque % and %at 1000rpm
CVX150: 602 46 125
9145: 552 41 136
714: 675 48 151
max drawbar power vel esp cons
CVX150: 91.6 9.5 275
9145: 90.6 10.2 272
714: 91.7 11.4 271
nom drawbar power vel esp cons
CVX150: 86.6 11.5 306
9145: 81.2 11.5 314
714: 82 8.8 287
Well i dont say that Fendt 700 is the best tractor that will ever be in the surface of our planet, but call it s***, seems a little strange.
Another thing is price/value, and other questions, but a s***, seem not to me, and i gave you an example.
CVX150: 74200e
9145: 63500e
714: 84100e
(maybe some diferent esp but i only have this, sorry)
In other hand Fendt is falling in his german sales, maybe its what based your afirmations?
by the way i'm not a Fendt fan, only try to look all.
Not want a colour war, only remark some points that seems important to me, i havent look more makes only for motor Sisu and Deutz that we are talking, and compare CVT trans. Steyr is for a reference (sisu too)
But its only my opinion from 500km away... maybe too far for same vision, what do you think?
|
|
|
|
Post by F6L913 on Oct 17, 2002 19:03:23 GMT 1
Renze,
What's you experience with the Fendt vario?
Do you own one?
I have a lot of experience with deutz engines and i never found somebody saying bad things about deutz engines.
A friend of mine bought a Lexion with the Mercedes engines 4 years ago, after a life in Deutz engines. They say Mercedes is the best until his little beuty fall down with only 3000 hours on it, now he remeber his old V8 air-cooled with 14000 hours.
You can say a lot of things about Deutz, but not their engines are s***.
|
|
|
|
Post by eppie on Oct 17, 2002 22:12:10 GMT 1
Well, that 411's engine fell down before 1000 hrs.
The next mounted engine also had not enough power.
Sisu engines drink above average, sure i know that.
Wrong compare. Compare to the TTV and Autopowr.
The 2013 series Deutz IS sh*t. It cant compare to the 1013 in the Agrotron, it's just better, and not just a little.... Believe me, MANY people complain about the 400 and 700 series with 2013 engines.
|
|
|
|
Post by Friedhelm on Oct 18, 2002 7:37:37 GMT 1
Renze is right about that. Heard about some 714 and 716 with engine breakdown before 1000 h. Not enough power is also something you hear often with 400 series.
We had also some problems with small Deutz engines in excavators and small backhoeloaders.
Compared to the amount of Perkins and Sisu Engines we have more problems with Deutz engines the last few years.
BUT:
Deutz made really good engines in the past and still builds good engines like everyone else. Every manufacter has sometimes a not so good product in his range.
|
|
|
|
Post by HPP on Oct 18, 2002 9:05:00 GMT 1
OK, I give in!
Can´t help it but have to give you "facts from out in the field":
So far no problems with the new Deutz engines here (that is the engines in the 700 Varios we have running, until now we don´t have any 400:s out). Enough power and low on fuel. As far as I´m concerned the new Deutz-engines are developed from the MWM and they were allright. Compared with them the Deutz-engines are higher in torque and lower on fuel.
Then let me give you figures from practical use of the Vario and Deutz out in the field, compared to another CVT-tranny and another engine:
Tractor equipped with the Dal-Bo Levelflex ringpacker up front. Behind a Kuhn Integra set (Power harrow and drill combination). The rig is 4 m wide. Heavy soil.
716 Vario : 8 - 10 km/h, 17 - 18 litres/h
7710 AutoPowr: 5 - 6 km/h, 30 litres /h.
This difference can not come from the Vario only, it also has to be a result of the good working Deutz 4-valve engine! And, of course, to be honest, it also has something to do with a lot of ajustments yet to be done on the AutoPowr.
|
|
|
|
Post by HPP on Oct 18, 2002 9:10:20 GMT 1
BTW Renze!
This belt type variator you´re talking about, wouldn´t that be the VanDoorn-thing? Originated from Holland I assume? I think Subaro also have had this solution in their cupboard.
|
|
|
|
Post by Xavier on Oct 18, 2002 18:48:08 GMT 1
Well i see opposite visions, good thing if everybody has equal vision how boring will became it...  Well JD fame is to be high fuel consumption and Fendt be low, but with your numbers HPP is awesome, 12 liters, it is 4e per hour  About JD autopower here the mechanist of JD are not very happy with them and they say to their customer not to buy it, and wait for and selfmade cvt trans of JD, anybody knows anything of it? Renze sorry but i haven't dates of TTV, and only Autopwer is a 6910, not so modern. As i asked yet one time: anybody knows the proportion of 6000 with autopower? |
|
|
|
Post by HPP on Oct 21, 2002 9:40:55 GMT 1
Hey Xavier,
the JD-made CVT-tranny that the JD people in Catalonia told the customers to wait for IS the one that´s used in the 7710 AP, the wery one I referred to above!
BTW what do you mean by saying "the proportion of 6000 with AutoPowr"?
|
|
|
|
Post by eppie on Oct 21, 2002 10:07:33 GMT 1
HPP:
Yes, the belt type variator by Van Doorne's Automobielfabriek, better known as DAF and at this time just producing trucks.
But the Nissan/Renault version will have chains wih rubber pads on them. Those are stronger and more efficient. (stretching of the belts causes power loss)
Audi has experimented with somehing similar.
Hey, just one thing about the so-called facts:
I discussed this before wih you, and when i said i am a little scary believing talk of salesmen (especiallly Fendt salesmen), you said facts are always facts.
But according to your facts, the Case MX270 compared to a 926, and Deere7710 compard to 714, both use more fuel when diving about 30% slower. This makes me wonder, how will a 140-150 hp 714 beat a 160 -170 hp 7710 ??
If i borrow hat 714, and put it next to my 6718, i could manipulate real facts so that the 6718 will have favourable fuel consumption !! just let the 714 drive slow enough !!! These facts are always facts, just be creative!!
I just dont swallow the sales crap of the spin-doctors of Deere and Fendt!! Money is just manipulative !!
How could you defend your overpriced product when it is not really superior ?? Just let the spin-doctors do the talking, and the customers will never admit that their status symbol is not any better than the rest !!!
I hope i havent insulted you, i know Fendt salesmen dont expect any word against their stuff.
Friedhelm: on my way to work, i have seen an Ahlmann little loader sitting alongside the driveway for about a week. I have also seen a Van from Deutz Diesel Rotterdam next to it, the distributor of industrial Deutz engines. That Ahlmann must have a 1010 or 1011 engine, i think.
|
|
|
|
Post by Woodbeef on Oct 21, 2002 12:58:25 GMT 1
Hey HPP,
I think what X-man meant was: What is the % of 6000s built utilizing the shiftless box?
|
|
. Introduction will be at the Sima 2003, there have to be more pictures/ info now I think... 
.........
