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Post by Fred on Oct 23, 2002 20:57:28 GMT 1
hey Renze
What type would you be recommeding to our czech friends?
New Hollander
Your right about a constant mesh being the most efficient at transmitting the power through it but there are other factors that will effect overall efficiency. Of coarse if you drive at same speed under maximum load with fixed soil and implement then great. We can make the gearbox even more efficient- two gears one for field and one four road. The point is farming is never even. Soil types vary, many if not most have slopes from slight to mountain side and load varies, baling, harvesting etc. The CVT and computer are there to maximise the best of all these resulting in more efficient operation. Of course set it p wrong and you'll be more efficient with that grey fergie. Case in point for powershift gearbox contrator replaced TW25 (153hp) with 8630 (132hp) and output mowing, ploughing and hesston baling went up because with crash box the driver selected the gear he could get up the hill at the start, no good trying to change gear on the go, outputup with smaller tractor and greater gearbox power losses. Some people I see with varios will rarely get the benefits but if your working your tractor hard day after day, not checking the cattle then it has to be better, with correct setup.
HPP
I'll try, whats the benefit, seeing how many stars you can get:)
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Post by Fred on Oct 23, 2002 21:13:30 GMT 1
See Woodbeef is saying similar. But Auto tranny in automobile is simpler for user but no way can I see you making a significant improvement in output compared to modern manual. Now if you go back to double declutching and true crash boxthen yes an auto could get you to your destination quicker, andsaveyour legs and arm from aching. I hate auto boxes in cars, always seems the engine is racing or over stressed.
What are these Green dealers saying their supplier can't get it right, they're not very good:) or north american farmers won't cope with the technology:) Is this not going to drive some farmers to the German opposition?
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Post by Xavier on Oct 23, 2002 22:38:13 GMT 1
Well all this is reaching my higher english skills. Of course is great discussing all this. Maybe in Catalonia is happening the same in UK, because Fendt is raising his sales maybe to MF customers. About Banner Lane (MF U.K. factory if I'm correct, is equal than Coventry?)do you think really that Renault has intentions of purchassing it? Seems a good move for Renault, but until today Renault is making an own line of little(ceres). Well with comparing 6265 and not 6255 seems to me that i'm giving some adventatge to MF. But we can do with 6255 if you want, in front TS110, and 6410?or in front of 6310, TS100? Absolutely agree with you, regulations of landmachinery make many fuel differences. It is a question that we must care. And a good use of transmision helps a lot, here is where a CVT can help a lot, not suficient in my opinion, almost with this price differences. I must congratulate you, seems you have good sales, as i see you are a MF-Fendt dealer. Is 6200 the most well selled line? I wil take advantage of you, what do you think about the new 4300 of Beauvais, they will better? I hope with lower prices... Can you give me your opinion as MF expert about this? I asked 3 months ago for one, seems too expensive, better relation for a 6200. About you HPP, my opinion until now is what you say good quality, Lower repair- and maintenace costs, lower fuel consumption, higher resale value but today seems to me that other make are narrowing this difference, and some people are against this opinion (Renze as a example in this forum). Fendt seems a Mercedes, is the best but not everybody will low total cost. But some people only wants Mercedes, because he wants the best, well is his money, no problem with it. By the way do you sell MF too? What do you of my question to Friedhelm? About Deutz motors i don't know so good this history for give you a solid opinion. Hoping F6L913... help you better. I only can give opinion of old Deutz aircooled motors, for me very good. Well about NewHollander question, the test is DLG, i think that they Silsoe made. Yes a modern transmision has a worse transmision coeficient. More clear in drawbar, pto losses seems more controlable. Your post is what are we discussing about CVT and PS, your question is the same with PS and Hilo. Of course a basical transmision is more efficient, an ecological motor is worse than one of older. Yes we know it but you will agree with me that we must go to more ecological. About trans, powershuttle give a tractor losses, but you can recover with time economy and confort. Similar with PS, and CVT theoretical yes, but i doubt it in practice, when CVT prices go down well we can talk another time. Well you can compare 6910Autoquad to 6910Autopower: rated pto max pto average max drawbar AQ 95.7 235 98 222 293 82.4 264 AP 93.8 257 102.3 241 312 88.6 278 This don't give reason to me  , but theses are the facts. But 6000 euro for this? 3000 ok but more? Well hoping i explained myself, sorry of some difficult words or phrases. |
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Post by Xavier on Oct 23, 2002 22:45:03 GMT 1
I don't remember it. maybe AgMachinery has some to say to your intention of meet all. Can he go too, or prefer his anonimus status.  We must congratulate he for have this forum, where we can talk. Maybe he must come with us? One year UE one year USA, go from USA to UK isn't the same that Germany-UK. For myself UK is posibly, USA not so clear.  We must talk more about it, maybe open a new board. I'm interested too. |
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Post by Woodbeef on Oct 24, 2002 0:13:02 GMT 1
Hey Fred,
Deere dealers over here seem to be a tad bit gun-shy of anything new from Big Green!! They have been bitten way too many times of late with electronics and higher technology gizmos!
Funny you mention,that the US farmer is not ready for technology. that's exactly what CIH has been telling me since 1997, as the reason we do not see any thing from Steyr over here sold new.
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Post by Fred on Oct 24, 2002 10:17:19 GMT 1
Woodbeef
Are you suggesting that some things produced by the great green god is slightly less than perfect. Your destroying my world. You have been brain washed by those E***pean manufacturers. Me thinks it's time for a fleet change back to the best. Look Laapa did and he's found another life:)
On this subject of gearboxes and users ability. Whats the farmers view of Selectospeed. It was available in the UK for the pre force models but most were replaced with standard boxes by Ford. Some say it was great but most say it was weak. My impression was if used carefully no problems but give it a bit of stick and boom! Seems it was available for a lot longer stateside. The JD powershift in the 4020 seems to have a better reputation. But then in UK a farmer that could afford a 4020 was going to look after it. Fords were No.1 at the time so every type of farmer had one! Is this why Fendt are seen to be better? what happens when everyone has one?
Xavier
I don't think Agco will sell the banner lane factory for tractor production, it will become a supermarket and houses. This will realise far greater price. The factory is outdated and big. The last time I was there in 92 I got the impression it was dying. The factory was build for engine production in WW2 and the test facilities are in small sheds that were used to test Merlin engines. Not exactly 21st century but very interesting. It will be sad to see it go. I don't see any manufacturer wanting to buy it anyway as it is outdated and sterling too high to export. Argo bought a Doncaster factory that had been heavily invested in for McCormick production, so thats the exception not the rule. Oh yes and Agco are keeping their MF head quarters their so no office space etc. I would think Renault have enough production facilities. About the price of CVT, somewhere here I mentioned price reduction. The mere fact of more competition for CVT purchases will drive down price and more units produced equals lower production costs equals lower retail price. It's 6000€ now but that will reduce.
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Post by Woodbeef on Oct 24, 2002 12:32:20 GMT 1
Hey Fred,
Do you mean the S.O.S (send out servicetruck)tranny used by Ford from the late 50s into the,early 70s?
Well it was one of those love or hate type of relationships. I think that the biggest problem with it,is that it was misunderstood even before it was released!The S.O.S was even way too complicated for some of the Engineers at Ford to correctly understand. In the first large Ford tractor(Commander 6000)today is looked upon as a fiasco. The lack of maintenance is what was its downfall. If the company had trouble figuring it out,how were the dealers suppose to fix them correctly?
All in all the ones that survive today are often being replaced with gear trannies,when service is needed. A good idea that was ahead of its time in the 50s,but not updated in later times.
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Post by Fred on Oct 24, 2002 12:43:18 GMT 1
Woodbeef
That's the one. Great expantion of SOS, I'm still laughing. I've read plenty about the 6000. I thought that ones problem was everything!! Butt ugly also. I understand what your saying about the use etc and if the engineers didn't understand itdon't give confidence to the customer. I really cannot believe they stuck with it for so many years without major improvements.
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Post by Friedhelm on Oct 24, 2002 20:06:47 GMT 1
Xavier For the higher skills I use my old dictionary. The comparing between those Types is difficult. Starts with gearbox: MF 32/32 box with Dynashift. The others? Which data did they take? Own measurements? Or Manufacturers data? (ISO Norm, DIN, ECE,... makes a lot of difference!) We should have equal datasheets to go for details. A TS in my opinion does not have the same comfort and plays not in the same league a 6200 does. If I have a look at the sales figures in Germany Fendt and NH have lower sales compared to last year and JD, Deutz, MF, Valtra and Case have got better sales. This is something that maybe will change in december. Some Manufacturers try to raise sales numbers by putting demos on the sales. No, we just sell MF. This year it is 2/3 6200/8200 and 1/3 4300. We sell about 15 tractors a year. Some years more, sometimes less. No, why should Renault do so? No reason for it. Banner Lane/Coventry is a huge factory and it would make no sense for Renault to buy such a big factory. They would get the same problem with Euro / Sterling. The Ares/Atles have got almost the same gearbox MF 6200/8200 have got. (GIMA is owned by AGCO and Renault . Biggest part by AGCO AFAIK). The question is which gearbox will the 4300 have in future. Will GIMA also produce the 24/24 Powershuttle or will they take something they already have? Or will there be something new which MF and Renault will take? The low spec models (200, 300, low spec 4300) will be moved to brasil factory. Only the models for Europe and NA will be build at Beuavais. 4300 Serie tractors are good. There are a lot of improvements made compared to the 4200 series. Gearbox, Cab, Noise level, engine, MFWD. This tractor is something for a customer who is not in the market for something with lots of functions and electronics and needs a not so heavy and big tractor. The tractor got a award on the last year Agritechnica. I do not know if there will be changes switching from England to France. I was told there will be now changes. Price is always to high. I´ve never heard I´ve been cheap. ;D If you are looking for something more comfortable, more technics and heavy tractor the 6200 fits better. |
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Post by Friedhelm on Oct 24, 2002 20:25:47 GMT 1
Fred:
Fendt combin / baler:
AGCO just wants, like JD and the other, the customer not only to buy the tractor from Fendt or MF. They want them to buy as much as possible from them.
Reliability / driver:
Just this week I saw once more how big the influence of handling and servicing machinery on the reliability of machinery is. Got a MF 3050 MFWD for repair. 8236 h still first clutch has to be repaired now. First Hydraulci pump, still good. No repairs ever had. Tractor is 15 years old and has got the first 32/32 gearbox. This gearbox does not have a very good name but this one is still as new. Tractor looks like new.
This tractor does everything on the dairy farm: plowing, mowing, feeding. But the Oil and Filters were changed every 1000 hours. Engine every 200 hours.
If every customers would handle his tractor like he does we would get out of work soon.
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Post by Fred on Oct 25, 2002 9:54:52 GMT 1
Friedhelm
That Farmer with the 3050 must be up for an award:) It certainly must be a record and proves that whatever the reputation of a machine if looked out to properly it can last better than most perseved top quality machines. Of course the type of work the machine does will effect the life but still a good achievement.
My Agco point is that their seems to be a bit of mixed message. On the one hand they want Fendt too be seen as premium product and so not competing directly with other Agco products, a good aim. MF to be lower spec alternative. So Fendt combines are meant to be higher spec, then why the Deutz models in Fendt green. Are the balers any different? The Tractors have their own factory but everything else Fendt comes out of common factories. Ratcliffe stated last year the reason for creating Agco line and dropping White/agco allis was to stop them competing against each other and create a better brand identity. Couple of months latter the Challenger thing was announced. Seems to me the White/Agco Allis thing was precurser to Challenger launch. Has anyone got a view? Oh CVT gearboxes, when will Challenger tractors have CVT (wheeled and tracked)?
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Post by AB on Oct 25, 2002 11:53:08 GMT 1
I've read about Agco-boss (Rattclif or something, sorry if it's not correct) idea's: Ägco produces a large range now; we deliver them under different names: good tractors Challenger, better tractors MF, and the best tractors Fendt." -- What about the White/Allis-tractors?? Still produced?-- He also told us "CVT- trannies are the standaard tranmissions for all tractorsmodels in the future". Just like the powershift: it will take maybe 20 years, but everyone will drive a cvt. In Europe, several farm-machinery shows will come next months: Eurotier (Ger.), EIMA (it.), RAI (amsterdam NL.), SIMA (Paris). Especcially the last one will be important for the companies to show the (new?) products. It'sgonna be an interesting winter..  |
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Post by kenjar on Oct 25, 2002 16:19:00 GMT 1
Friedhelm,
Good to hear some 3000s gave reliable service, not always the case.
On the 32/32 Dynashift , how is the reliability on newer models? Were they more troublesome than the prior 16/16 used in the 3600?
Fred,
I am wondering the same thing. Agco said it would save on cost if they combined the Allis and White lines and just produced one , enter AGCO. May have been a move to make room for Challenger.
I guess when Massey gets a CVT so will the Challenger. They are the same tractor after all.
AB,
You might get into an argument on how the brands are rated or perceived. I know Friedhelm will smile that you rank the MF better than the Challenger. ;D
Might have to agree with you on the CVT, most likely it will be the norm instead of the exception as it is today.
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Post by Friedhelm on Oct 25, 2002 17:25:48 GMT 1
Fred / Kenjar:
Tractor works as 1. tractor on a small dairy Farm (ca. 40 cows). Second one is a MF 560 (14000h ?) .
3000 series tractors with 16/16 or Dynashift are reliable and good tractors. We have some 3600 running with Dynashift and no problems. Some 3600 with 16/16 box had probs mostly the big ones (3680/3690). A lot of that stuff was changed and MF did a lot to satisfie the customers but that was something the dealer had to handle.....
Challenger tractors are almost complete MF Tractors. So I think they will get CVT as soon as MF gets it. Next Spring/summer I hope it will be avaiable.
CVT will make its way, that´s true it will get bigger parts of the market if it gets cheaper to afford one. But there will be still a lot of Farmers who want an easy to handle, service and to fix tractor.
One thing we also should have in mind: Where do we sell the old ones with 10000 hours and 15 years old? This problem grows day by day. Old ones a mechanic could fix with common tools, nowadays it is almost impossible to fix the new tractors without special tools and lessons how to do it. This also will have more and more impact on the farmers decison which tractor he will buy in future. Parts are quick avaiable, Service not far away, Good mechanics a dealer who offers this service and helps his customers as much as possible will sell the tractor.
Just my opinion.
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Post by kenjar on Oct 25, 2002 18:12:11 GMT 1
Hello Friedhelm, Were the rear planetaries on the 3680 a problem? I have a friend who has had them reworked twice. Both times at around 4000 hrs. That has been the only recurring problem he has had . I beleive they went with a compound planetary on the 3690. He gives high praise for the Valmet engine, no problems yet at 9000 hrs. Over here dealers may have more of a problem selling low houred late model tractors than the older ones with lots of hours. Rowcrop farming hasn't been that profitable lately. |
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, but theses are the facts. But 6000 euro for this? 3000 ok but more?
