Massey Ferguson CVT

[HPP]

Renze, Renze....!
I was talking about (and writing!) 716, not 714.
I was also talking about trying to do as much as the different tractors could manage. I did also state at what speed we were going. I was really just trying to give the facts as they developed, out there in the fields.
I´m not offended at all by you questioning my statements. Hey, after all, I´ve been working with Fendt 20 years now and thus used to be questioned, belive me! In the years I´ve met a lot of farmers who, rather than admitting that they couldn´t afford buying a Fendt, or make use of it, or even understand the technology, they seem more pleased to say that Fendt-salesmen are lying!
I also know that what you call "sales crap" never pays off to use when talking to customers, therefore I never do! Not this time either!

[Hendrik17]

Our dealer told me that about 20 % of the 6020s sold in Germany were AutoPowr (IVT)

[Xavier]

Ok Woodbeef is ok, thats what i asked. Thanks.
i have seen your post in profi, yes MF it isn't a cheap tractor, in the first price is equal or above a John Deere here.

Thanks hendrik,

ok in germany cvt is dominated by Fendt (all models, well almost all)

Would change tractor sales if Fendt offers some non CVt in all their ranges, more options like hendrik saids yet.

What do you think, Fendt with a semipowershift a new 500 (same motors than 700), a 300 (with powershuttle please) with 400 motors or some others else, if you prefer, will recover his first place?

[Woodbeef]

Hey X-man,

No problem,sir. I often need translating too!!

I think you have a very valid idea there. Fendt seems to be betting that every one that wants a Fendt tractor over 100 hp also wants a Vario. I'm not entirely sure that is a correct assumptuion on their part. But hey who the hell am I,eh?

[HPP]

Hey Xavier & Woodbeef,
I agree with you both there. I myself am also missing the 500:s. I think I said before at one post or another that if we still had the 500-range we sure would sell them in numbers. We have today a list of customers who are waiting for 500-owners to trade in their tractors.
But, as I´ve heard it from Marktoberdorfpeople, the philosophy goes something like this:
Since early 50:s tractor industry (and their customers, at least quite a few of them) has been dreaming about the "utopia" of stepless trannies. Now it´s there, it´s a fact. And we know it´s working (Fendt has had the Vario running in different stages of development since early 80:s). So - why then put money in further developing of the "conventional" gearboxes?
Well, at least that´s the version I´ve heard and I must say, even if I do miss the 500:s, that I don´t think it´s hard to follow the logic.
Now, say that the 500-range returns to the market. OK, a "new" engine. Most likely the same engine as in the 700:s. Also most likely it would have the same transmission as it had when the production stopped. Then at least I know that Fendt would get a lot of critics for presenting a not up to date tractor.
The still run the 300-range. 309 is still the most sold tactormodel in Germany (after more than 20 years!) but they do get a lot of negative remarks for the old fashion construction.
So, they go Vario. And - what do all the others do?

[Fred]

Well said HPP

CVT is the future. It will take time but eventually they will rule. I am already surprissed at the number of Vario's in England, even on small/medium sized dairy farms.

[eppie]

Sorry, i am mistaking.

There's no doubt that you wrote 716, not 714. Your message is unedited, so no doubt. Fact.

Deere advertises low fuel consumption they are the number one. Fendt does it too.
So there must be something about these so-called facts.
And, the favourable results are showed. The 1991 Zetor 8540 drinks 280 gr/KWh and the 10540 236 gr/KWh. But the 8540 had a torque raise of 32% and the 10540 20%. So, mostly the 8540 was advertised with torque raise mentioned, the 10540 was advertised with fuel consumption mentioned.

I use "my own" brand in this compare, to show you that ~everyone~ selectively mentions facts. I'm sure you wont agree with this, but that's just the result of that special green/red beer.

For further remarks about these so-called facts (i am not calling you, or anyone a liar, btw) look at my discussion with FFF about manure spreaders, and the reflection of political climate on human psyche.
I'm not gonna continue the discussion about deeper psychological motives for everyone's (and my own) good.

Those "deeper psychological motives" seem to insult people, i mean nothing bad with it. Please, allow me to explain with a practical example: It's just the same principle as in the milk joke,

Ask someone the question and let him answer directly:

Q: what is the color of one refrigerator?
A: white

Q: what is the color of two refrigerators?
A: white

Q: what is the color of a police car?
A: white

Q: what is the color of thousand refrigerators?
A: white

Q: what is the color of one and a half police cars?
A: white

When the guy who answers, after about 10 questions answered with "white", is getting into the rhytm, ask:

Q: what does a cow drink?
A: milk

8 out of 10 persons will answer the last question with "milk" because milk is white. Their underconsiousness is manipulated by themself, answering "white" all the time.

Now when you ask them "what does a cow drink", their mind connects the previous answer "white" to "cow" and "drink" and the result is "milk".

Some people need about 3 minutes to realise their last answer was wrong, and let go of their idea that a cow drinks milk because they have answered white all the time.


It is not meant to insult anyone, or to blame anyone, it's just a funny example of how the human underconsiousness can be manipulated in a very easy way. Everyone knows a cow drinks water instead of milk, but their answer "white' all the time reflects through their underconsiousness upon their mind, resulting in the answer "milk".

Just fun. no fight.


Oh... Forgot something:

About facts from farming practice:
agmachinery.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&n=1&thread=390

I value little farmer's personal experience as high as yours, both experienced Fendt in practice, Little farmer is not prejuduced, otherwise he would have never bought one in the first place, so that's why i think this contains as much truth as your "sales talk"



Your statement, "this is what we were waiting for since the fifties" is simply not true. And it wasn't an utopia, Heider, a small N.A. brand, later indirectly eaten by Case, had a variable friction drive, an early cvt. Maintenance was a big problem here, but it WAS a real cvt. And for farmers, turbo engines were avoided when they came, mfwd tractors were avoided when they first came, and many more examples.

I say: the slogan "the Vario is what everyone was waiting for since the fifties" ~IS~ sales talk. If you deny this, i will do call you a LIAR. (the Fendt 308-309-310 are evidence by Fendt itself.)

My personal opinion is, that Fendt discontinued the 500 series, because they havent invested in this ZF design. They have invested in the Vario tranny, and want to sell numbers to spread development costs. And manufacturing costs of a Vario are half of those of a conventional tranny. Just count the gears, clutches, synchro rings in the ZF, and compare to the Vario: The vario has a few gears, few clutches, and some standardised hydraulics taken from Sauer shelf. (Yeah, the stroke of the pumps is enlarged, but in fact it is a standard pump) The Vario is just more attractive to produce, manufacturing is cheaper, and they need to break even on development costs.


How would it exist, that people would not understand Fendt technology?? The Fendtoids just keep on claiming that a Vario is the easiest thing to drive in the world...
Marketing is just one big controverse.

The way you said that people who cannot afford a Fendt, or even understand the technology, feel better to argue with the Fendt salesmen, made me

You are getting a 'feeling' for this "black or white" game

[Woodbeef]

Hey Doctor Renze,

Me thinks you have imbibed way too much of the 20% solution!!

Do you take Blue Cross,HMO,or OHIP cards for payment of your pyschological counseling services?

Can we try and stay away from these etherial pursuits in the future,Doc?

[HPP]

OK Renze,
ease up, please....
Tried to follow you all the way but didn´t quite at some points. Didn´t quite understand what you meanth talking about the Fendt 300:range. Maybe if you were saying that the salesfigures of those models today prooved me wrong when I stated that "everybody has been waiting for stepless trannies" (wich wasn´t really what I said, but never mind), then I may have understood.
A thing that I seriously hope that you, and all the rest of you guys, will understand is that I never, ever will regard this board as a sales forum. I couldn´t, even in my wildest dreams, imagine me trying to convince you, or anybody on this board, to buy a Fendt.
BUT, if a question concerning Fendt pops up here and I feel that I have the answer, I certainly will try to answer it as seriously as possible. With as many facts as I know.
AND, if I see statements here concerning Fendt that I know are obviously wrong, I will try to give the board the truth as far as I can.
I will however allways try to stay out of the type of discussions where the one poster says JD is the best and Fendt, or whatever brand, is crap and the other poster claims the other way around. I´m not too thrilled by that kind of "forum". Those who are, and speak german, could easily try out the profi forum. Unfortunately the serious guys are a minority there. However, they, luckily enough, do exist. Our friend Friedhelm is a good example of that.

[Woodbeef]

Hey HPP,

Has this push to only HiTech at Fendt came since Agco? All we get over here are the Varios,nothing else. this makes Fendt the HiTech flagship of Agco in North America.

OK I can see your point about the ZF sourced trannies,but why not have a Gimma produced Fendt designed box?

Seeing as how Fendt still has basically the same engines as they've had for years,what is all the hub-bub about the new engines? Are they still not made in Manheim at the same old MWM factory?

[eppie]

HPP:

you have catched my point about Fendt 300 series concerning your statement "this is what we waited for since the fifties"

About you, me, salestalk, underconsiousness:
I just wanted to say:

We have a proverb in the Netherlands:
"You get contaminated with what you get familiar with"

Everyone gets contaminated with the brand he believes in. For you, it is Fendt, for me, it's Zetor, for a cow, it's milk

And to tell you once again: When i say anyone spreads sales talk, i am not calling anyone a liar. I just mean that the white he believes in reflects upon his milk.
Some people wont admit that they see their products a little more sunny, but that's just how the world works.

The most radical examples are the Deeroids and Fendtoids you spoke about, on the Profi forum.
But i say, no one is free of these symptoms. Not even you and me.

To all of you: As you might have seen, i cannot keep away from these contradictions. I suggest the next time i have an argument, i wont mix into this discussion again, but just say "a cow drinks milk"

Woodbeef:

Sorry, i dont take plastic. Feel offended? get me an excorcist

[Xavier]

Well this topic is going well...

One thing first police cars are white? not here Renze, i don't will said milk never, because police cars here are blue.

Well it is a joke only.

But looking better why i said water and not milk, because i don't respond white in all the others, well it can be in the paralelism (not sure how to say it) the information.
Information is the reason that makes me be correct (only in this joke in other sure i will be uncorrect, not a superhero).

But information is esential, if you know the differences between this two Zetors, for many times they said you their selective facts, you will know the truth and it is what counts. And you will select good, not influenced.

Therefore if everyone is well informed every salesman will give you all the facts, you will know by other way so he will give you all information. We need tests (DLG, nebraska, Cemagref, Silsoe, FAT... we need all) If there isn't any test we machinery customers are defeat in front a salesman (not all of them, HPP seem that you aren't one of them)

About profi germany forum i visit it some time ago, and is what HPP says Fendt is better not is JD, not is DF without any reason, not like here. In Terre net same situation.

About Fendt, yes maybe my opinion isn't as solid as you expected, but a 700 (called as you want) with a semipowershift trans, will have his marketplace. But a 300C without a powershuttle not (my opinion isn't well supported with his sales, but i still think the same). Not doubt a cvt has a lot of advantages, but in my opinion a extra cost what isn't recover, almost with Catalonian prices. If you buy one is for have the lattest technology, not anything else. But i never say that is a bad tractor, some old post of mine will refrain it.
And its true all makes are going to CVT, and sure it will be a new standard, as today powershift, but still have Hilo today.
Another brand example 6000euro a Autopower trans you will recover it in front a AutoquadII trans i have my doubts.

Well as Fendt and Massey are the same today, if you want a JD Premium or Premium Plus go to Fendt if you want a Premium or a SE go to a Massey, as we say "all stay at house"

Well not sure that i have explained myself good, but i can try another time if you want.

[Friedhelm]

If HPP would not defend his brand he fought for and lived for so many years something would be wrong.

I learned tractor driving on a MF 35 and I grew up with MF. Now I am selling MF. I am also fighting for MF. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with this way. The only thing which is importaned is to be honest and fair.

Renze, sure there are salesmen who just want to sell and make money and they are not concernd about what they sell. You are also right about the marketing stuff: The one with the best marketing will sell best. His product in this case must not be the best there is, it has only to be good and not more.
You are also right about the way people act: Most things are not bought by facts and price. If you like something and you like the guy who sells it you will buy it even if there is something similar cheaper and maybe also better, but you don´t like it and the guy or dealer is not likeable.
This already shows that it is not that easy to explain/discribe how people are thinking and acting. It is not black or withe . I am glad it is this way, because this makes live interesting.

[Fred]

I'd say salesmen are there to filter all that complicated data and give you, the buyer, that information most helpful to purchase the machine most suited to your needs:)
Renze
You'll believe in CVT the day one comes packaged in orange;)

[Friedhelm]

Xavier: NOW I will start to fight! ;D

MF is SE and Fendt is Premium?

I think you are not right about this point.
MF offers different technical solutions and if you put everything avaiable on a 6200/8200 Series tractor you will have a lot of functions and possibilties Fendt and other brands can not offer. Online Fuel consumption display for example is something no one else can offer. Slip control with the possibility to set the upper slip limit for the work you are doing. A Gear box with 14 gears between 4 - 12 km/h. DualControl for easier working with trailed plows. or TIC for trailed disc cultivators. Front Dual Control, ......
In future this all combined with a CVT makes me think we are at least on the same level.
You are right if you compare a standard MF to a standard Fendt. Here Fendt offers a lot of things you have to order seperatly if you go for an MF. But like you said: Does everyone really need this stuff? Is it necessary?
AGCO announces Fendt as premium product. They have to do so. How else you can sell such a tractor?
MF surely is the brand which also is offering tractors with low technical futures and lower prices for the customer who are in need of such machinery. This is the difference between a global player and a brand which points on high tech markets and for customer who buy such tractors. AFAIK most tractors in the world are still sold without a cab and without technical features which we can even not imagine to work without.