Massey Ferguson CVT

[Fred]

hey Freidhelm

Your right about different technical solutions, couldn't have put it better. If everyone offered the same life would be communist.
I get the impression Agco are trying to set their tractors to different buyers on the one hand, high spec etc, why offer a basic spec fendt when MF are world leaders in that sector. Look at VAG trying to sectorise Skoda, Seat, VW, Audi, Bentley, Bugati?. Anyway they are trying to not have them competing against each other by creating an image for each.
But on that level why offer badge engineered Fendt implements and combines. I think Agco's answer to a basic Fendt is a green 4300.

[Xavier]

And then fight... ;D

Well sure you can put a lot of things in a 6200, not all cab suspension is not avalaible in MF. The front suspension only in the six cilinders. As MF local dealer says he never sold one with them, Fendt is featured all with them.

All brands have his own options than others haven't, but one thing not generalized seems not so important, don't think so?

I don't want to minusvalorate Massey, it is a good tractor, almost in their specs and options, but his price is too much expensive. I have asked for one 4300 or 6200.
In other way seems that many people has problem with them, i can't say it i haven't worked with them.

Of course many options are usefull but with their cost you can go to another brand, if you want to do it. About options if are unneccesary we have equal opinion, i have pointed that Fendt is losing in front of JD because a JD has more options and you can configure your own tractor to a high spec or to a low spec.

By the way i will buy first a 4355 than a 309C, only for his options.

Some numbers:
German sales:
1997 6.53%
1998 5.88%
1999 4.52%
2000 4.54%
2001 4.21%

Catalonian sales:
2000 13.44%
2001 10.09%

Well sales are falling in your and my country, something is wrong.

About MF and SE maybe SE is one step below, but an Action version (a Premium sold in Catalonia without some options is in the same step) Premium is one above. Its my opinion only
Friedhelm, when i went to the MF Fendt dealer it was seems to me. Do you want the best buy one of our Fendts if you don't wan to pay all this euros go to our Masseys, we have all
the options, like JD salesman says to me too.

Fred i agree with the VAG simil.

I haven't any prejudices against Massey, the cab seems very good to me for example.
For the moment i'm a Deutz man, not Fendt and not Massey. We need Massey in a good position for a free market and not a duopoly (monopoly of 2).

Some test
6410 6265 TS110 309C
Pot pto 70.8 71.3 74.1 65.4
esp cons 250 273 236 252
average cons 14.3 15.9 14.2 12.1
esp 315 359 291 288
Torque 416 394 428 410
Drawbar max 62.3 63.7 55.4 60.9
esp cons 265 294 316 276

Well as you can see is not the best and not the worse, all of them have their plus points, and his minus points you must see what you will need more, pto or drawbar. But MF has a worse
consumption, and a similar price (its problem in my opinion, for this prices many people is going to NH)

Well i suppose i don't convince you, i don't want, i prefer you continue with your opinion, and so we can compare our opinions, ok?

[Friedhelm]

OK, Xavier.

Cab Suspension is avaiable.
It is not a MF own solution but a dealer solution. Works good. I know this does not count.
We have sold almost every 6 cylinder with QuadLink Frontsuspension ( Should be now around 20 tractors ). You are right about 4 cylinder here we are missing this faeture.
Sales figures:
2002 4,7 %(Sales including August)

But you are right, in the past something went wrong. I can tell you what:
1. Varity (Former owner) did not invest in MF it took money out of it. The result were products which weren´t up to date and the reliaability was also not as it should be on the first tractors of 6100/8100 series. Result: Customers lost confidence in MF.

2. The british made tractors were to exspensive due to the high british pound against Euro and Dollar. Result: Coventry will be closed.

Have a look at the tractors now and you will see that minor things have changed: Money is invested to Beuavais factory, Money is invested in products and the planning of new products. To be honest we have never had such good tractors like now. It will take some time to give back the confidence in MF like we had with 3085 . But I think we are on a good way and the future will come up with better sales. I am quite sure MF will get back its position on the market .

A 6200 can not be a cheap tractor anymore. What does this tractor miss behalve a CVT untill now?

You can not compare a TS 110 and a 309 C with a 6265. In my opion the 6265 is to big . You should take a 6255.

Fuel consumption is something I handle very careful. There a lots of numbers and so called facts on paper which I do not believe a lot in. How many hours did the tractor run already before the measurment has taken place. Waht has been measured? Only Engine or complete machine? With or without Airco, dynamo or cooling fan completly engaged? I have got enough examples that the consumption on measurement and in the field can be very different. This is something I can see on demonstration with Datatronic. It is unbelievable how a different gear or the setting of the plow/machine has influence on the fuel consumption. Minimize the slip and you will see the Fuel concumption will go down from 18 L/ha to 15 or 16 L/ha. Different way of driving can also help to cut down fuel consumption about 5 - 10 L/ha ( Ok, 10 l/ha less was a really bad driver . Plowing with 2000 engine rpm was not necessary on that ground)

I like discussing the things like this with people so we can go on with this if you like to.

[HPP]

Gosh! This is really getting heavy!
Hope you don´t expect me to answer all of this.

Renze! You´re all right! Take my hat off!

Woodbeef :
About Hi-Tech and AGCO - No, it didn´t come with AGCO. It´s been there for many years. At one time or another someone, probably Hermann Fendt himself, has decided that the only way to survive would be to allways try to stay ahead in developments and thus try to offer more than the competitors. Combined with a certain, prefferably higher, level of quality of course.
It´s actually quite logical. Fendt has allways been, and will also in the future, be a relatively small manufacturer. This way they could never become a mass producer, so I guess the only way to go is to stay Hi-Tech and try to offer more. Of course this means higher costs for development and for the higher quality margins in production, but, at least so far, the customers thinks it´s worth it.
Naturally not all customers by Fendt, or even should. You do really have to be able to make use of it to get the calculation right. As I stated before my calculations normally end up by claiming that you should reach at least around 7-800 hours per year. But when you do, after ten years of use it´s most likely that you end up with lower total costs. (Lower repair- and maintenace costs, lower fuel consumption, higher resale value).
If you don´t, (rech the amount of hours per year) well then both we, and of course our collegues (I preffer to call our competitors that), have other options. Then we could get in to discussions about MF:s where, as Friedhelm stated, we are able to offer quite a few Hi-Tech details as well, but of course also lower spec alternatives. Now of course this goes only for us AGCO-dealers who can offer both brands. I also gladly admit that I see this situation as purely positive.

About GIMA-trannies: Well, sure. I guess that would be OK, but I also think it would cost a bit to develop the combination and, as long as AGCO now are able to offer the two different levels of spec I guess they don´t think it´s worth it.

The "new" engines vs the older MWM:s. Well, I´m not to well informed there, but I think that the new Deutz-engines are produced in the Deutz-factory and not in the old MWM-works. And I also think that the similarities aren´t all that many. At least not to the point where you could claim that those two are practically the same engine. My knowledge on details are also here a bit limited.

And, to the rest of you:
It dawned on me reading all of the postings here - wouldn´t it be really nice if all of us guys (where are all the gals BTW?) could meet sometime. I could really imagine us having an all night sitting discussing machinery, trannies a.s.o. ´til dawn. Or maybe one day and night wouldn´t be enough.

[Fred]

If Fendt develop a new vario then I think it is in Agco's interest (fendt and mf) to use the existing vario in the red product. This way MF get a proven reliable transmission without development costs. Fendt get investment for new tranny (Agco happy to invest in new technology quicker, sound in knowledge existing vario has prolonged life). I agree with HPP that Fendt have always tried to target top end of market for reasons given. Large groups like Agco, cnh are there to drive down costs and reduce duplication. Developing a new GIMA product is out as far as I can see. Only one to benefit there would be Renault. I don't see Agco worrying too much about Renault (look at attitude towards banner lane and claas). Gima was setup to reduce costs on tranny development and production.

Are most dealers in Europe now offering MF and Fendt? Many in UK seem too and solidly red farms are getting Fendts. Is this lost sales to MF, as they would have bought another MF. Or do you see whether it's a fendt or MF doesn't matter as its an Agco sale. Why not just badge the fendt as an MF, result MF sales figures go up.

[Woodbeef]

Hey HPP,

So then what is left of MWM?

It seems to me that the water cooled Deutz engines came about after DF bought MWM,did they not?

So you're telling me that the Fendt motors are pure Deutz and not newer version MWM?

[HPP]

Hey Woodbeef,
Honestly I don´t know what´s left of the old MWM-factory. As I told you my knowledge here is a bit short.

I do think that Deutz had some watercooling going before. Think that one of our Catalonian friends told us so a while ago. But I still see the purchase of MWM as a way for D to get into water. At least when we´re talking about the enginesizes to fit tractors.

What is the new Deutz-engine then? Well, I´ve allways seen it as a mix. Then of course, it was Deutz who bought MWM, so I guess the constructiondepartment of Deutz enjoyed a little higher status when they started the mixing. But, as you said, who am I to know.
To bad my friend Alex, the dane, isn´t with us. He would know. I´ll ask him at occasion. Unfortunately his technological skills are miles above his linguistic abilities.

Talking about friends : Hi Fred!
How come we only see you as a Guest? Since you seem to agree with my thinking I would like to see you as a frequent member. I need you to back me up against Renze! Just kidding Renze!

[HPP]

Another thing just X-ed my mind:
Where did Jarno go? After all you started this topic!
Guess you didn´t know what you started - hottest topic for a long time!

[Friedhelm]

HPP

Good idea. We did this with some people from the profi forum at the last agritechnica. It was really a great thing. You get faces to the names you see here. Can have a nice cup of beer or two ....

The problem here is where do we meet? Danmark, Sweden, Germany, Netherland, Catalonia, Great Britian, USA, Canada,... sure I forgot a country. I have seen on Lee´s Homepage they have rooms for hire. Just kidding, but it would be a possibility.
I would take holiday for something like this. Should try to get this managed.

[Woodbeef]

Hey Dr.Renze,

Maybe you better get E-commerce built into the new site too!! You're missing out on all those $$$ from your pseudo psycho analizing business!! You could open your office at the Zetor Bar in Helsinki!!

[New Hollander]

Hello guys,

it seems a nice idea to me to meet each other. I have a question for Xavier regarding the test results mentioned earlier. Where did you get these from? I found the JD, MF and Fendt are OECD tests either in Germany or France but I couln't find the NH results. I found Silsoe test results of a TS110SLE which are engine power at rated speed 73.3 kW and max power at drawbar 60.6 kW. I also think you aren't comparing apples with apples. You'd better also mention max engine power which is
TS 110 SLE 73.7 kW
309 70.6 kW
6410 74.1 kW
6245 71.3 kW
This gives a better idea of the transmission efficiency. Hope you can comply with me.

[F6L913]

About Deutz and MWM engines...

Deutz bought the Motoren Werke Manheim AG (MWM) in 1985. In 1992 Deutz start the production of the 1012/1013 series. I think in 1992 the MWM engines were sold still under MWM brand and there were no similar product under Deutz brand. I think in these days MWM and Deutz still work as two different companys. A friend of mine have a fendt 515 and in the motor i can read MWM-Deutz, but it's not a Deutz design, looks like the old MWM's.

And yes, Deutz always build water cooled engines. The first tractors were water cooled. Big ship engines were water cooled too.


Another CVT question, what is the rol of Linde in the CVT gearbox?
I read on a Case CVT gearbox the brand Linde in the right side of the cab.

[eppie]

Well, i was the so-called "bitten dog" but after all, everyone is joining this discussion, and things turned out to be o.k. (just Mr. Woodbeef doesn't like me anymore, i think hee feels his dominance on this board is threatened ;D)
Still, we are not all sharing the same opinion, anf that will never happen, but i think at least our attitudes have changed towards each other.

I hear many people say what i meant to say.

HPP: Do you really think i'm right, or was it meant just cynical? (it sounds too good to be true )

Fred: I have said that before here, about creating an image for a brand.

And i never said i am Anti-CVT. So there is no CVT under an orange/red sheet needed to convince me to CVT.
For some people, it's useful. But for me, in our operation, i am statisfied with the 10 speed Zetor tranny.

By the way: i think, if we see a CVT under an orange-red sheet, it will be different than the current semi-hydrostatic ones.

[New Hollander]

Here are some other nice results of the same tractor but with different transmissions:
NH TS110
1) Econoshift 16+4 non synchromesh Dual Power
2) SL DP 24+24 synchromesh Dual Power
3) ElectroShift 16+16 4-speed powershift synchromesh

max PTO power 73.9 73.4 73.7
rated PTO power 73.5 73.4 73.3
max drawbar kW 65.1 61.7 60.6

Here you see the more modern the transmissions get the more power consuming they get. This makes you wonder why you should always buy the most modern equipment, especially when you are working under uniform conditions in most of the time the same gear. I wonder why in these modern times they aren't going back to fully computerized, efficient mechanical gearboxes like the good old Dual Power which proves to be very efficient and reliable.

[Woodbeef]

Hey New Hollander,

How's it going?

I think that the answer to your question lies in the ease of use of the newer,more refined trannies.

Its like automatic trannies in cars. They eat more fuel,but are easier for the masses to use. When I was young,just about everyone learned how to drive on a clutch. Today it is hard to find a clutch in new North American built cars(all but the econo boxes that is)let alone a new driver that knows how to drive one!!

Is it cost effective to get the lowest tech tranny? Debatable question,it depends on a case by case basis really.

Biggest problem over here is JD dealers are disauding their customers away from the IVT. They are telling them to wait 5 to 10 years for Deere to get it figured out. so where does that leave the rest of the CVT world,if and when we ever see it over here? Will CVT become black-box technology because of this stance?

One thing for sure,as always your side of the pond is way ahead of our's,once again!!